If it all started with nothing, then nothing would be everything, and thats something.

You cant have nothing without everything, but, as I think, you can have everything without nothing. Right???

God, proved, next!

Not a physicist, but I thought physicists have found that the universe came from a big bang, not nothing.

He did come up with a system that evolves on it's own within certain laws. Mainly freewill and other physical laws that rule the entire universe.

He also has foreknowledge, which allowed and allows Him to be able to see into the entire future of all His creation. He knows what everything and everyone is going to do ahead of time yet still He does not break freewill, He works within the confines of that Freewill and never breaks His written word. He can and does go above and beyond the physical laws of the universe at times without every breaking His own written word or overstepping the Freewill of mankind.

Chew on that for awhile. I think you need to really think long and hard about what I just wrote.......... before you reply....

You don't create a firecracker, you make or form it out of the existing elements. Then if it blows up, it just changes into another form. All the elements it was made of still exist, just in another form and fashion....

I agree that something has always existed and that something is God. Biblically the word God means Creator. And there are other names for God in the bible with different meanings all explaining different characteristics of the same God.

God created, brought into being, spoke into being the universe which did not exist beforehand. Simple as that. It's easy to understand if you accept the simplicity of it.

When I refer to nothing, I mean the absence of what we now call the universe and all the elements within it.............

Ok...but did he tell us to not eat pork? Yes or no?

I love bacon and ham how about you?

No, but that's irrelevant to the purposes of our discussion.

So are you willfully disobeying God, or do you believe that at least part of the Old Testament is false?

How well do you know the word of God?

Did you know that Christians are not under nor subject to the old testament law......none of it?

Not an expert but fairly well. I mean, it's written right there in Leviticus. I assume you're saying that God actually said these things as attributed in the Old Testament, but that they don't apply to modern people.

No I didn't. I thought Jesus didn't change the law?
There are more like that.

The only thing Jesus absolved was the need for sacrifice. Rather than kill animals and burn their blood on the altar, we are now commanded to eat his body and drink his blood.

That and kindness in judgment, as he showed with the woman about to be stoned.

But I'm not seeing where he says the old laws are no longer valid. Indeed, he seems to very explicitly say that they are and they should be followed. Am I wrong?

There are something like 613 laws commanded by God in the Old Testament. It is my understanding that these laws only apply to Jews.

I believe that there are some Messianic Jews (i.e. Jews who have become Christians) who still observe these laws (except for animal sacrifices).

Addendum edit: I think we might me derailing this thread.

The "Ten Commandments only apply to Jews" argument would probably make some Christians unhappy.

Re: derailing, thread was dead for months, but sure.

As for OP, rather than posit the universe or the substrate on which the universe is formed being external, which somehow blows his mind, OP says that God is eternal and poofed the universe into existence, which doesn't blow his mind, and hence in his mind this scenario is more likely to be true.

Seems like a pretty weak (if not outright absurd) idea in need of some serious justification.

You're probably right about that.

I believe that the 613 laws were essentially subsumed by Jesus into two laws: 1) Love God and 2) Love your neighbor. (see Matthew 22:36-40)

So, presumably, if you truly love God you won't violate the first four of the ten commandments, and if you truly love your neighbor you won't violate the last six of the ten commandments.

edit: Full Disclosure Alert: I am a Christian.

Seems a reasonable argument.

If this discussion actually goes back to the original topic, you probably won't hear from me in this thread again since I basically don't understand what you guys are talking about lol.

What physical laws have changed and when did free will change?


The Noahide Laws apply to all according to Jewish people.

My subjective awareness of reality, my consciousness, formed from nothing.

You need to be reading Romans specifically Romans 3:20 and on and Galatians 2:16 and on and you need to read Hebrews 10

Once you have read those areas and those books then we can discuss this because if you don't know those areas or understand them, it's really pointless to talk about this in text Maybe verbally it would be easier. But if your not a Christian in the first place, none of this will even make sense to you in the first place... So, I would start with Romans 10:9,10 and get born again, then read the other stuff.

Just to be clear, Christians are not under ANY of the old testament law. It was fulfilled by Jesus Christ. He was the end of the law, and ushered in a new administration or period of time. The whole purpose of the old testament law was to keep the believers line somewhat intact so that the Christ could be born. Then once he was born, it was done away with and the LAW of love was initiated. After the day of Pentecost, after Christ had lived, died and been resurrected, there is a new way to live life, and better way, without all the old testament laws. It's called walking in God's love. According to what God describes is Love in the new testament and the Gospels. The Gospels actually show the fulfilling of the old testament law by Jesus Christ.

There is so much more that you need to hear in order to believe and understand, its not hard, but you cant learn it my me writing on this forum, it's just too slow.. And I am not willing to explain all of this on this forum, its usually a waste of time, but if your really interested, PM me and we can work out a way that I can actually explain this to you so that it makes sense...

Why do so many Christians disagree with you? To what extent is this your opinion, vs fact?

I'm fine with all this except for the fact that he says repeatedly that the law remains and not one jot of it is to be changed or discarded. Could have saved a ton of confusion and 1500 years of old testament law had he simply said "the laws of the old testament are no longer valid" rather than saying very plainly more than once that they were valid and applicable.

I appreciate the proselytizing, and I'm a huge fan of Christianity for how it has singlehandedly civilized the world (most that's good about the modern moral world is not inevitable enlightenment but rather the direct outcome of Christianity), but I'm probably the last person on Earth who'd become a Christian. It's a nutty religion built on an even nuttier religion. So you'd be wasting your time. I send you good wishes though.

Many theologians have identified three distinct divisions in the OT law: ceremonial, judicial and moral. Many Christian theologians argue that ALL people are obliged to keep the moral law (e.g. thou shalt not bear false witness), but that only Jews are bound by the ceremonial and judicial laws.

As I indicated in an earlier post, Christians are bound by only two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.

Maybe I'm committing the Genetic Fallacy in reverse or something, but I'm not clear on how a "nutty religion built on an even nuttier religion...singlehandedly civilized the world (most that's good about the modern moral world...[is] the direct outcome of Christianity." Nuttiness isn't typically a foundation for bearing sweet fruit on anything on a grand scale that I'm aware of. That would seem to make it, by definition, not particularly "nutty."

But you know what they used to say: "Sometimes you feel like a nut, and sometimes you don't." (Okay, I'm almost 60 years old so maybe I'm the only one here who remembers that commercial.)

n.b. thread derailment complete

Well, to give an example, Islam is an even nuttier religion than Christianity (sexual slavery, Jinns, paradise for making war on non-believers, the prophet a pedophile & warmonger), and yet it managed to unite and civilize the dispersed, warring desert tribes and turn them into a major cultural and military force, some of it for good.

To give another example, Adam Smith, a charlatan with some hilariously crazy ideas even to mainstream Christians, led to a movement that's extremely peaceful and gentle and civilized (Mormonism), in a way that makes regular culture appear barbaric.

So it can and does happen. With Christianity, its notions of guilt and blood sacrifice and Original Sin and a super power entity sending down his son to forgive mankind by dying on a cross to forgive us for original sin is crazy. That's without getting into eating his body. If aliens arrived and had a sense of humor, they'd be laughing like crazy at how backward we are and how absurd our religions are.

Yet at the same time, the tenets of Christianity revolutionized society. It lead to greater kindness, to personal sacrifice, to pride in a work ethic, to humility, to a search for eternal principles that guided man rather than worldly power, etc. All of it lifted Western Civilization's eyes and thoughts upward rather than down or outward. It's pretty unique in that regard, and it that background ultimately fueled the Enlightenment.

Thread was dead already. I am too young but it's a good quote

A man asked Rabbi Hillel to teach him the entire Torah, the five books of Moses, while standing on one foot. And Hillel did. "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That's the whole Torah", he said. "All the rest is commentary. Now go and study."

A Nazi asked Rabbi Hillel to teach him the entire Torah, the five books of Moses, while standing on one foot. And Hillel did. "What is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That's the whole Torah", he said. "All the rest is commentary. Now go and study." The Nazi shot him and felt morally in line with the teachings of the Torah as per Hillel.

because the nazi wanted to be shot