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Old 05-12-2016, 07:10 AM   #26
rstrats
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,
re: You can remain ignorant..."


And my continuing ignorance is predicated on not receiving any examples of commonality from those who assert that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language.
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Old 05-16-2016, 12:50 PM   #27
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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And my continuing ignorance is predicated on not receiving any examples of commonality from those who assert that Matthew 12:40 is using common idiomatic language.
For some, ignorance is a matter of circumstances that do not allow for opportunities to learn. For others, it's a matter of willful choices.

One can choose to not believe man has made it to the moon for lack of having had the opportunity to go. He is "rational" in his belief in that there is a clear standard that is not met and is maintaining a position consistent with that. However, whether the position is intellectually justifiable is another.
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Old 01-10-2017, 09:22 AM   #28
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

With the new year upon us maybe there will be someone new looking in who knows of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. However, there have been some who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He must have known that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.
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Old 01-10-2017, 12:17 PM   #29
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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However, there have been some who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language such as the Messiah saying that He would be in the heart of the earth for 3 nights when He must have known that it would only be for 2 nights. But in order to say that it was common, one would have to know of other instances where the same pattern had to have been used. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.
You are correct. Nobody has been able to produce something so perfectly tailored to your demand as to satisfy you.

But this is very different than the idea that there is a reasonable way to infer the information based on other information that is not precisely the thing you're asking for.

The stubborn ignorance remains strong with you.
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Old 01-10-2017, 02:55 PM   #30
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.
re: "But this is very different than the idea that there is a reasonable way to infer the information based on other information..."

What other information other than actual examples could there be to show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have taken place?
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Old 01-10-2017, 04:27 PM   #31
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Aaron W.
re: "But this is very different than the idea that there is a reasonable way to infer the information based on other information..."

What other information other than actual examples could there be to show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have taken place?
Most people would say that a reference to a Jewish encyclopedia from over a century ago that discusses the concept of a day as potentially including just a few minutes would indicate that counting days might be done in such a manner.

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
There are other examples from which one can infer this type of understanding of chronology, even if they don't exactly parallel the language usage. For example, from the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia:

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/5007-day
Or perhaps colloquial usage of "all day" in English as not referring to a literal 24 hour period in other languages might suggest that such a thing is possible:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
This would be an analogous rendering of the discussion.

"I waited in line all day at the DMV."

What time did you start waiting? 7 AM? And when did you get through the line? 2 PM? That's not all day. In order for you to be waiting in line all day, you would have had to get there at midnight and leave at midnight. That's what all day means.

It's a little more technical than that, but this is basically what's going on.
As I've noted, it is possible to have unrealistic standards and expectations. So if this doesn't satisfy you, you will likely choose stubborn ignorance and continue in your unrealistic expectation.
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Old 01-11-2017, 09:50 AM   #32
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W,
re: "Most people would say that a reference to a Jewish encyclopedia from over a century ago that discusses the concept of a day as potentially including just a few minutes would indicate that counting days might be done in such a manner."

But where do most people say that a forecast day could be counted as a day when no part of the day occurred?



re: "So if this doesn't satisfy you, you will likely choose stubborn ignorance..."

I didn't choose to be ignorant - I just am. I'm ignorant of any examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:06 PM   #33
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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But where do most people say that a forecast day could be counted as a day when no part of the day occurred?
Elaborate on this. I suspect you're using the wrong concept of "day" in order to make this claim.
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Old 01-11-2017, 04:09 PM   #34
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
re: "So if this doesn't satisfy you, you will likely choose stubborn ignorance..."

I didn't choose to be ignorant - I just am. I'm ignorant of any examples which show that it was common to forecast that a daytime or a night time would be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur.
It's like the moon analogy I gave earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by me
One can choose to not believe man has made it to the moon for lack of having had the opportunity to go. He is "rational" in his belief in that there is a clear standard that is not met and is maintaining a position consistent with that. However, whether the position is intellectually justifiable is another.
You are ignorant in the sense that you do not know what it's like to experience being on the moon. But there's enough information available to conclude that mankind has visited the moon, even if you're not the one who went.
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:13 AM   #35
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.
re: "Elaborate on this. I suspect you're using the wrong concept of 'day' in order to make this claim."

I've made 2 claims. Firstly, that some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week try to explain the missing 3rd night of the Messiah's forecast by saying that He was using common Jewish idiomatic language of the period. And secondly, that no one who thinks that way has provided any examples to support the assertion of commonality.
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Old 01-12-2017, 12:31 PM   #36
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Firstly, that some who think that the crucifixion took place on the 6th day of the week try to explain the missing 3rd night of the Messiah's forecast by saying that He was using common Jewish idiomatic language of the period.
In saying the "6th day of the week" are you using "day" in the Jewish sense (sunset to sunset) or "day" in the modern sense (midnight to midnight)? This would also impact which "day" the "6th" "day" is.

Quote:
And secondly, that no one who thinks that way has provided any examples to support the assertion of commonality.
That could be because you're looking for verification of something where you have insisted on the wrong understanding and haven't bothered to look carefully at what has been provided to you.
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Old 01-12-2017, 06:47 PM   #37
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.
re: "In saying the '6th day of the week' are you using 'day' in the Jewish sense (sunset to sunset)...?"

Of course, since I would imagine that the Messiah was referring to a calendar day in the Jewish sense (sunset to sunset).



re: "That could be because you're looking for verification of something where you have insisted on the wrong understanding and haven't bothered to look carefully at what has been provided to you."

What understanding do you think I have that is incorrect?
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Old 01-12-2017, 09:30 PM   #38
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Aaron W.
re: "In saying the '6th day of the week' are you using 'day' in the Jewish sense (sunset to sunset)...?"

Of course, since I would imagine that the Messiah was referring to a calendar day in the Jewish sense (sunset to sunset).
When you say "6th" day, can you describe to me which day you're referring to? Perhaps something like "Monday sunset to Tuesday sunset"?

Quote:
re: "That could be because you're looking for verification of something where you have insisted on the wrong understanding and haven't bothered to look carefully at what has been provided to you."

What understanding do you think I have that is incorrect?
How you're looking at and counting the days. It's something that would be quickly and easily resolved by just a little bit of research and thinking. But since there has yet to have been any evidence that you've tried to understand things over the many years you keep returning to this question, it's my best bet as to why you're stuck where you're at.
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Old 01-12-2017, 10:59 PM   #39
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,
re: "When you say '6th' day, can you describe to me which day you're referring to? Perhaps something like 'Monday sunset to Tuesday sunset'?"

The 6th day of the week is the 6th day of the week. I have no idea what name it was given or even if it was given a name in early first century Jerusalem. But whatever the case, it's irrelevant to this topic.



re: "How you're looking at and counting the days."

I'm not doing that. I'm simply asking a question.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:26 AM   #40
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Aaron W.,
re: "When you say '6th' day, can you describe to me which day you're referring to? Perhaps something like 'Monday sunset to Tuesday sunset'?"

The 6th day of the week is the 6th day of the week. I have no idea what name it was given or even if it was given a name in early first century Jerusalem. But whatever the case, it's irrelevant to this topic.
It's not irrelevant. I need you to construct the timeline you think you're challenging. The fact that you haven't yet been able to do even the simplest explanation of what you think is happening and your refusal to try to explain your position any further than you have is being viewed as evidence that you're just intellectually obstinate and unwilling to engage your brain.

Quote:
re: "How you're looking at and counting the days."

I'm not doing that. I'm simply asking a question.
Right... You're simply asking a question in which you can't even describe the thing you're asking about. Good luck.
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Old 01-13-2017, 08:20 AM   #41
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,
re: "It's not irrelevant."

Why do you think knowing a proper noun name - if there was one - of the 6th day of the week is relevant and necessary to answer my question?




re: " I need you to construct the timeline you think you're challenging."

I'm not challenging a time line. I'm challenging the assertion that the Messiah was employing common Jewish idiomatic language in Matthew 12:40.




re: "You're simply asking a question in which you can't even describe the thing you're asking about."

I can and I have. This topic is concerned with one thing and only one thing; Many folks believe in a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection. The Messiah said that He would be in the "heart of the earth" for 3 nights. A 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection allows for only 2 nights. There are some who try to explain the missing night by saying that Matthew 12:40 is employing common Jewish idiomatic language. If that is true, there would have to be examples of such usage in order for them to legitimately say that it was common. I am simply asking them to provide examples which show that a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
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Old 01-13-2017, 12:32 PM   #42
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
I am simply asking them to provide examples which show that a daytime or a night time was forecast to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could have occurred.
Sigh...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
For some, ignorance is a matter of circumstances that do not allow for opportunities to learn. For others, it's a matter of willful choices.

One can choose to not believe man has made it to the moon for lack of having had the opportunity to go. He is "rational" in his belief in that there is a clear standard that is not met and is maintaining a position consistent with that. However, whether the position is intellectually justifiable is another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
You are ignorant in the sense that you do not know what it's like to experience being on the moon. But there's enough information available to conclude that mankind has visited the moon, even if you're not the one who went.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
Most people would say that a reference to a Jewish encyclopedia from over a century ago that discusses the concept of a day as potentially including just a few minutes would indicate that counting days might be done in such a manner.



Or perhaps colloquial usage of "all day" in English as not referring to a literal 24 hour period in other languages might suggest that such a thing is possible:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
I've done the following:

1) Demonstrated that in a parallel usage of "X days and X nights" by the same author is not questioned in a similar manner about the precise start/stop times.
2) Demonstrated that the Hebrew chronological concept of day can include any part of a day.
3) Pointed out the fact that literal transcriptions of events from ancient times are rare, so that the precise example of what you're looking for is unlikely to exist.

You can remain ignorant by assuming that the only way to answer your question is to isolate exactly the thing you're looking for and close your mind to other information, or you can become intellectually engaged in the question and realize that many such questions do not have a singular parallel that precisely answers the question you have, and that you have to work through inferential reasoning based on the available information. The choice is yours.

What you have deemed as a point of pride has been revealed to be nothing more than stubborn ignorance.
There seems to be no intellectual merit to your demand, and there is sufficient information available to you in this thread to properly understand the thing you're struggling with. But since you have chosen not to engage your brain and to close your mind to the available information, you will simply be an ignoramus.
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Old 01-13-2017, 02:46 PM   #43
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,
re: "...there is sufficient information available to you in this thread to properly understand the thing you're struggling with."


What exactly is it that you think I am "struggling with"? Please be specific.
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Old 01-13-2017, 09:01 PM   #44
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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What exactly is it that you think I am "struggling with"? Please be specific.
I'll give you two, though I could give you more if I wanted.

1) Intellectually honesty would dictate that you would actually be able to clearly lay out your concern about the interpretation of the language. You have been provided multiple opportunities to put in absolutely clear terms your understanding of "6th day" and demonstrate the issue to someone who has no prior knowledge or experience with the question. You are struggling with presenting a clear demonstration that you understand your own question and the issue you believe you're confronting.

2) I have now given you multiple references and ideas to consider, and you have not demonstrated in any sense that you've even read about or thought about any of it. This leads me to think that you're not even bothering with it because it's not exactly the thing you're looking for, even though it's related information and can provide a meaningful basis upon which to draw a reasonable conclusion about the question at hand. You are struggling to demonstrate a true intellectual interest in the question. All you have shown is that you are persistent in asking the same question repeatedly.
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Old 01-14-2017, 07:40 AM   #45
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,

Because you still don't have an understanding of my request, there is no point in any further input on your part. And even if you did understand it, you probably wouldn't know of any examples since you're not a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, However, someone new looking in may know of examples.
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Old 01-14-2017, 02:40 PM   #46
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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Because you still don't have an understanding of my request, there is no point in any further input on your part.
Yup. Willful ignorance and an absence of intellectual integrity.
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:07 PM   #47
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Aaron W.,
re: "Willful ignorance and an absence of intellectual integrity."


That might possibly be true with regard to other topics' issues. But for the purpose of this one, I'm simply asking for examples. So far no one has provided any.

Last edited by rstrats; 01-14-2017 at 03:12 PM.
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Old 01-14-2017, 03:35 PM   #48
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

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That might possibly be true with regard to other topics' issues. But for the purpose of this one, I'm simply asking for examples. So far no one has provided any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post
For some, ignorance is a matter of circumstances that do not allow for opportunities to learn. For others, it's a matter of willful choices.

One can choose to not believe man has made it to the moon for lack of having had the opportunity to go.
.
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Old 01-15-2017, 02:36 PM   #49
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

Quote:
Originally Posted by rstrats View Post
Aaron W.,

Because you still don't have an understanding of my request, there is no point in any further input on your part. And even if you did understand it, you probably wouldn't know of any examples since you're not a 6th day of the week crucifixion advocate, However, someone new looking in may know of examples.
I feel like Aaron has gone above and beyond to answer your question the best he could but it seems you'll only be satisfied if you get a response from a sixth day proponent. There are many Christian forums out there where you can pose your question and be more likely to get the response you're looking for. Good luck!
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Old 01-15-2017, 05:16 PM   #50
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Re: Three Days and Three Nights

In the mystery centers of the ancient world; Greece,Chaldean,Egyptian and Old Indian and the Hebrew, the would be initiate was placed in a trance by the hierophant and priests which lasted for 3 1/2 days. The neophyte would have gone through years of preparation of salient difficulty prior to this event.

The new born initiate would then be awakened and he would bring forth fruits of his sojourn in the spiritual world. Whole nations such as Egypt, Chaldea and Persia,.. were guided by this and the mystery center itself as they were the religious, scientific and educational centers of the ancient world.

The prophesy of the Christ Being was known in the mystery centers but the Christ being was not so clear but they were aware of His approach. The path of the Christ upon arriving on the earth was known within the mystery centers; that path being the 3 years from the Baptism of John until His Death on Golgotha.

The mystery centers represented by the gospels gave their particular views on what happened during the incarnation of the Christ being. As it is said in the John Gospel; it would be impossible to place in books the infinite happenings of the Christ Being while on the earth, the Cosmic Christ.

Fast forward to the time of Christ and what is seen in the synoptic gospels of Mathew, Mark, and Luke is the pathways of the initiate which were previously within the Temple of the Mysteries but was now being accomplished on the world stage. these men were representative initiates of individual lodges. In the Revelation of John the centers were known as the centers of the Bull,'Eagle, Lion and Man.

In essence the mystery centers were being brought to all humanity as the "fig tree" was no more.

The gospel of John who is the "risen Lazarus" is the record of a witness to the Christ Being on the Earth . John, or the "risen Lazarus" was the first Christian initiate who was initiated by Christ Jesus; the new way through Christ. this is the beginnings of the initiation of all men, so to speak, which is being accomplished within time, via the structural grace of reincarnation and karma.

The ennoblement of the human soul takes time for it is done in freedom without coercion, the Love of the Christ.

Christ Jesus died at the 3rd watch or 3:00 PM on good Friday and rose again on Easter Sunday which is two(2) nights and on the 3rd day. Consider that what is being read in the synoptic gospels is the old 3 1/2 days but not folowed exactly by christ Jesus.

Its an overlap...
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