Theists -- Explain Haiti to me, please - Page 2 - Religion, God, and Theology

Ok.. why does God punish the relatives left behind to mourn their loved ones?

Also, there's a huge amount of people maimed, property destroyed, etc. Is this just some sort of blessing that we're not wise enough to comprehend?

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01-13-2010 , 08:04 PM

#27

LXThrottle

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Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 5,396

"Many Christians accept Voodoo as part of the country's culture. They have no problem because half of the people that are Christian are very aware that the other half practice voodoo. However there are the few Christians who disagree with the idea of voodoo. For some believe voodoo is not compatible with Christianity". Even though many people in Haiti do practice voodoo, when asked the question, "what religion are you?" they would respond that they are Roman Catholics or Evangelicals."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian-Voodoo_relations

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01-13-2010 , 08:06 PM

#28

Concerto

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,564

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexArcher

You've given Pat Robertson a hell of a compliment, given that Richard Dawkins is one of the most respected biologists in the entire world.

Not really, since how "respected" either might be is immaterial to the point. Nor am I referring to Dawkins' activities as a biologist.

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Have you read any of his books other than The God Delusion?

No, and I haven't read that one either. His articles, interviews and lectures (which are constantly linked to in forums like this) are enough to show what he's selling. It is his role as proselytizing showman that I am addressing here.

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01-13-2010 , 08:08 PM

#29

TexArcher

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Quote:

Originally Posted by LXThrottle

Okay. Let's assume this is correct. Let's also assume that the preliminary estimate of 500,000 dead is correct.

So God, who loves us all, is willing to destroy 250,000 Christians in order to also destroy 250,000 practitioners of voodoo.

Yes?

Last edited by TexArcher; 01-13-2010 at 08:18 PM.

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01-13-2010 , 08:10 PM

#30

EvilSteve

Midlife Crisis

Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 13,195

Quote:

Originally Posted by Turn Prophet

Pact with the devil, ldo.

I'm curious about the procedural details of a nation making a pact with the devil. Did the Haitians vote on it? Did Satan go around with a petition collecting signatures?

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01-13-2010 , 08:23 PM

#31

Concerto

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TexArcher

Impossible to determine.

It could be that God created all 500,000 of those people for purposes which entailed being killed in the earthquake, such that the alternative was for them to have never existed at all.

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01-13-2010 , 08:28 PM

#32

spaceman Bryce

anything you guys want

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 18,818

I think the devil likes to kick people while they are down.

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01-13-2010 , 08:29 PM

#33

TexArcher

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Quote:

Originally Posted by spaceman Bryce

I think the devil likes to kick people while they are down.

If only there were an all-powerful, all-loving god to make him stop...

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01-13-2010 , 08:36 PM

#34

Concerto

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TexArcher

If only there were an all-powerful, all-loving god to make him stop...

If that's what you think, why would God give us free will and then stop us from using it (for evil)?

Or should attempts to second guess God's motives be avoided?

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01-13-2010 , 08:38 PM

#35

spaceman Bryce

anything you guys want

Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 18,818

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexArcher

If only there were an all-powerful, all-loving god to make him stop...

Don't worry this is just a small penstroke in the library of history.The good Hatians will go to heaven imo. The living Haitians will have their faith tested.

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01-13-2010 , 08:41 PM

#36

LXThrottle

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TexArcher

If we assume that god "loves us all", I think the answer is no, as non-believers are a part of this “all” is suppose.

I don't care about if its god or whatever work. But find interesting how misleading statistics can be if we don't analyze them correctly (and people really get terrible conclusions from statistics…). I find more interesting learning about Haiti culture then discussing if some ominous being killed them. To discuss the consistency of Christian god I would need to know better what Christian say about their god. But “loves us all” and killing 500,000 people to punish non-believers don’t seem much consistent at first glance.

I also find interesting the possibility that all Christians in this forum are in fact practitioners of Vodou.

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01-13-2010 , 08:46 PM

#37

LXThrottle

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Why would god save these people if they will die anyway?

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01-13-2010 , 08:52 PM

#38

nittyit

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,541

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neue Regel

me too, near sea level on the oregon coast

"oh ur f*cked"

-Juan De Fuca

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01-13-2010 , 09:07 PM

#39

nittyit

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Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,541

Quote:

Originally Posted by Concerto

Impossible to answer given our extremely limited understanding of God's motives and choice of means in particular circumstances.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Concerto

We can understand God's motives insofar as we read what they are, in context, in the Bible. It is mostly impossible to do otherwise.

Can't we look to the Bible for his past motives? God has never killed off thousands for being good people... so what is the reason? Surely these people were bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Concerto

Impossible to determine.
It could be that God created all 500,000 of those people for purposes which entailed being killed in the earthquake, such that the alternative was for them to have never existed at all.

You can make an argument for passing on having never existed at all instead of opting in to be a 5 year old born into poverty going through 3 major hurricanes only to be killed by an earthquake. Gee God... what a gift of life.... but to you its impossible to understand God's motive.... which is such a self centered view on others suffering. Solipsism ftw... this suffering is just testing YOUR faith in God... disgusting.

Last edited by nittyit; 01-13-2010 at 09:16 PM.

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01-13-2010 , 09:28 PM

#40

Concerto

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Quote:

Originally Posted by nittyit

Can't we look to the Bible for his past motives? God has never killed off thousands for being good people... so what is the reason? Surely these people were bad.

God's motives in past situations do not necessarily apply to today's headlines. In fact, they surely almost never do.

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You can make an argument for passing on having never existed at all instead of opting in to be a 5 year old born into poverty going through 3 major hurricanes only to be killed by an earthquake. Gee God... what a gift of life.... but to you its impossible to understand God's motive.... which is such a self centered view on others suffering. Solipsism ftw... this suffering is just testing YOUR faith in God... disgusting.

I didn't say that. Sometimes it is possible to know God's motives. That is what the Bible is for. Usually however it is not.

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01-13-2010 , 09:34 PM

#41

TexArcher

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Concerto

I didn't say that. Sometimes it is possible to know God's motives. That is what the Bible is for.

Or the Torah, the Talmud, the Qur'an, the Tao Te Ching, the Bhagavad Gita, the Book of Mormon, or any of the myriad pagan and tribal writings about god throughout history.

Right?

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01-13-2010 , 09:40 PM

#42

nittyit

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Concerto

God's motives in past situations do not necessarily apply to today's headlines. In fact, they surely almost never do.

Well you can throw the whole Bible out out if God's past motives "never do" apply to anything today. Why hold the Bible and God's teaching in such high regard if its irrelevant today?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Concerto

I didn't say that. Sometimes it is possible to know God's motives. That is what the Bible is for. Usually however it is not.

wat? just take to heart the good parts of the Bible. The rest does not apply or is mired in mysterious motives we cannot comprehend.

Last edited by nittyit; 01-13-2010 at 10:01 PM.

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01-13-2010 , 09:46 PM

#43

RLK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TexArcher

You have posed this incorrectly. Putting the voodoo thing aside altogether, assuming there is a God, He did not destroy 250,000 Christians. They have left this world and are in a better place under the assumption of a God. A better question is: Why inflict the loss and pain on the survivors? They are obviously the only ones suffering. That is what you meant to ask, right?

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01-13-2010 , 09:52 PM

#44

TexArcher

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RLK

If you want to rephrase the question, go right ahead. I'm more interested in how you answer it.

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01-13-2010 , 10:00 PM

#45

RLK

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TexArcher

If you want to rephrase the question, go right ahead. I'm more interested in how you answer it.

I do not know the answer. I can only speculate. You could also if you are bright and wished to test the other side of the argument.

Perhaps it is to give us the opportunity to be generous with our time and money. To develop our compassion and empathy and become better human beings. I could try other ideas, but I am just guessing.

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01-13-2010 , 10:06 PM

#46

esoterodactyl

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Join Date: Jan 2010 Posts: 64

people die everyday in numerous locations. if i explain haiti to you, i should be expected to explain why god "kills" numerous innocent people every day. this is not a valid argument against christianity OP.

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01-13-2010 , 10:15 PM

#47

TexArcher

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RLK

Perhaps it is to give us the opportunity to be generous with our time and money. To develop our compassion and empathy and become better human beings. I could try other ideas, but I am just guessing.

I like this answer. It's as close to a satisfactory answer as I believe to be possible.

But it still leaves us wondering about god's nature, doesn't it? God murders some (six figures) of his own followers so the rest have a chance to be decent human beings? Sounds a bit like a parent, who loves both of his children, beating the everliving **** out of one of them so that the other can practice his compassion by taking care of the wounded one. What is godlike about that?

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01-13-2010 , 10:22 PM

#48

Dying Actors

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Concerto

We can understand God's motives insofar as we read what they are, in context, in the Bible. It is mostly impossible to do otherwise.

if we use the bible to determine gods motives...i think the best conclusion to draw would be that god is a murdering psychopath with jealousy issues.

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01-13-2010 , 11:00 PM

#49

nittyit

old hand

Join Date: Feb 2008 Posts: 1,541

Quote:

Originally Posted by esoterodactyl

Funny because if you ask a good amount of Haitians that are victims of this earthquake they will somehow tie it to God and an argument FOR Christianity. Ask a survivor if God spared their life.... assuming how Christian this country is.

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01-13-2010 , 11:05 PM

#50

Concerto

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Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 4,564

Quote:

Originally Posted by nittyit

Why hold the Bible and God's teaching in such high regard if its irrelevant today?

The Bible is the most relevant book around, which does not mean it has specific explanations for everything that happens on CNN, or even most things. That is not its purpose.

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wat? just take to heart the good parts of the Bible. The rest does not apply or is mired in mysterious motives we cannot comprehend.

No, take everything in the Bible according to its intended context with an understanding that the motives of a Being who could create you and the rest of the universe are going to otherwise be mostly incomprehensible.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dying Actors

if we use the bible to determine gods motives...i think the best conclusion to draw would be that god is a murdering psychopath with jealousy issues.

Such a characterization of God's actions with essentially zero understanding of His knowledge and intent is lol ridiculous. Time to scratch that one off the talking points list.

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