God is LOVE.

The reason you are asked to do certain things is to protect you from an unseen agent known as the devil who lives in the spiritual realm and loves to hurt people.

There are spiritual principles that govern all of life and all the God does is say do this, or that for your benefit. He sometimes explains the whys and wherefores of his directions and sometimes does not. But either way I can assure you that God doesnt waste his time saying something to someone for no reason at all.

Whenever He has something that we are to do, they is a reason and bebfit for doing it...........that I can promise you......

But if his god tells him to kill you, watch out.

Weird post for a weird religion i guess.
I didn't compare the 2 cases of slavey, but it seems your saying the ancient slave trade was fine and only the more recent one was bad?

I added people and male chauvinism into my equation. The religion of the bible fit perfectly with a male dominated system that sought to explain the then unexplainable, and keep people in their place.

Its amusing how Christians like to pretend slavery was so different then. If you invaded a neighboring people's, you killed the men and took the women as involuntary slaves.

It is certainly true that some people sold themselves into slavery as a financial transaction. But people like Splendour will remain intentionally ignorant and pretend that this means that all slaves were just doing a job voluntarily. The amount of denial it takes to hold a position like this is jaw dropping.

The fact that the Bible prescribes that you can beat a slave (so long as they can walk within 2 days), you can enslave their families, have sex with them, etc... all is okay by Splendour and gang. Since some people sell enter servitude voluntarily, it excuses all the slaves that were forced into that position, whose families were enslaved (or often, the fathers killed and the women and children forced into slavery)... all okay by splendour! Just another good christian with her deeper morals!

I'm saying the ancient slavery doesn't equal identically the image we have impressed on us by the more recent history of slavery.

As for male chauvinism. It doesn't match Christianity any more than other cultures. Examine Asia today. Women and girls are still being impressed into the slave trade in India and/or being abandoned in favor of boys in China and these cultures history aren't Christian. They were binding little girls feet in China and women were walking 2 steps behind their men in Japan until recent history. Millions of girls are tea servers in Japanese companies up until very recent times.

Your assumption is Christianity controls all culture and customs where its the dominant religion. But if Christianity controlled all cultures where it was present male chauvinism likely wouldn't exist in Christian cultures to the extent that it does. Headship in the bible doesn't equal tyrannical control and domination which is the sinful aberration of headship. Quite the contrary. Scripturally Christian men are required to love their wives as much as they love their own bodies. The ideal wasn't met in Christian history. It doesn't mean principles were at fault. Just communication of the higher standard failed.

Splenda, Splenda... Of course women have equal status in Christianity, that's exactly what the quotes below are about. People just keep misinterpreting the damn texts and misreading the Spirit.

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

"Let the women learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression." (I Timothy 2:11-14)

"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything." (Ephesians 5:22-24)

"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church." (I Corinthians 14:34-35)

There were more but I got lazy copy-pasting.

Quote mining.

Headship: think leadership. Not tyrannical bullying.

People getting things wrong or interpreting things to accomodate their own sinful behavior doesn't equal an accurate carrying out of religious principles.

Of course you're a Dawkinite....So this is a waste of time.

Now prove why Christianity is necessary for male chauvinism and find its roots in India, China and Japan for me, please.

Shocked your head didn't explode after the first sentence with all the big words.

This is possibly the most idiotic post I've ever read on the entire 2+2 server. I sometimes browse NVG and BBV....so...yeah.

The sad thing is that you're a completely brainwashed tool and don't even know it. I would be surprised if you were > age 18 or so based on my own experience (thinking exactly like this when I was in HS). Your use of the description of "cold" and "calculating" when describing atheists makes it very clear you're the product of fundie brainwashing. I have a black eye from facepalming so hard at your "table image" analogy so I won't even get into that.

Advice: Grow the **** up before you wake up one day and are Pletho. If you're already >30 then jump off a bridge.

Edit: Also, to address another one of the ridiculous points you brought up (another fantastic fundie argument I'm familiar with): No, just because you do not believe in god does not mean you automatically just go out and rape and pillage everything in sight. You admitted that if god did not exist (in your mind) you would go out and steal **** (because it would be "+EV" whatever that means) while an atheists said he would not.

Christianity: Making ****ty people feel better about themselves since AD.

It's not and I never said it was. It simply condones it.

No it doesn't. At least not today. Listen to some family counseling on Christian radio some time.

Are you claiming that the woman in the bible is a man's equal?

Someone should fix those texts. Unlike people, books don't change to conform to the reality outside them on their own.

its interesting... she posted TWO responses to one post and neither one addresssed the content of his post.

Yes... he quote mined. And the quotes clearly show that the Bible promotes chauvinism.

Calling him a dawkinite doesn't negate the chauvinism. Pointing to China doesn't negate the chauvinism. It just really highlights that you can't contradict his point.

No and she doesn't have to be. Christians are called upon to follow Christ's example and if people are practicing the love that the NT teaches then division of labor isn't a big deal. If you read Proverbs 31 women are to be respected and they can perform major tasks like buying land.

Re: ancient slavery

From a footnote in Keller's The Reason For God:


Andrew Lincoln, Ephesians, World bible Commentary, 1990, pp. 416-17: "Modern readers (of the Bible) need to free themselves from a number of assumptions about first-century slavery, including the assumptions that there was a wide separation between the status of slave and freedperson...and that all who were enslaved were trying to free themselves from this bondage...There was a broad continuum of statuses between slave and free in both Roman and Greek society. Slaves of Greek owners could own property, including their own slaves, and could obtain permission to take other employment in addition to their duties as slaves...It was frequently in the owner's interest to manumit them, since their labor could be obtained more cheaply if they were freedpersons...Though there were undoubtedly far too many cases of cruelty, brutality, and injustice, there was no general climate of unrest among slaves."

Another Keller footnote:

"Although it has been fashionable to deny it, antislavery doctrines began to appear in Christian theology soon after the decline of Rome and were accompanied by the eventual disappearance of slavery in all but the fringes of Christian Europe. When Europeans subsequently instituted slavery in the New World, they did so over strenuous papal opposition, a fact that was conveniently "lost" from history until recently. Finally, the abolition of New World slavery was initiated and achieved by Christian activists....Slavery was once nearly universal to all societies able to afford it, and only in the West did significant moral opposition ever arise and lead to abolition" (Rodney Stark, For the Glory of God, Princeton University Press, 2004, p. 291).

(Some famous Christian abolitionists: William Wilberforce of Great Britain, John Woolman of America. Oh, and John Wesley (the father of Methodism) once wrote a letter to a prominent English politician leading to the abolition of the slave trade by England.)

Don't forget that the civil rights movements in the U.S., South Africa and Poland had religious roots. The Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. in America, Archbishop Desmond Tutu in South Africa and the Polish priest Jerzy Popieluszko in Poland. Their activism sparked civil rights movements in all the above mentioned countries.

Wow.

This post is really something.

Well it seems a lot of the atheists posting on 2+2 are selective about what ideas they will entertain.

There seems to be a link between Confucianism and male chauvinism but you don't see atheists exploring it because they are mostly intent on taking down the main philosophical/theological beliefs in their own backyard.

If Confucianism intensified male chauvinism and if (a big if if Christian teaching did...though I think its the lack of indepth teaching that has permitted chauvinism) Christianity intensified male chauvinism....then that means male chauvinism underlies any philosophical/belief system and there's a natural propensity of people to abuse the system with any excuse they can find. All they need is peer permission to do so.

So if male chauvinism is a constant underlying factor and peer acquiescence is a given then you have to weigh in how much misapplication of scripture factored in. Maybe the scriptural beliefs are lighter factors with a naturally occurring male chauvinistic propensity than people recognize. Plus other factors like economics and survival will tend to symbiotically bond with belief systems to create a hybrid system in the favor of what people already want to do which is exercise the domination/control (not leadership/headship) of one sex over the other sex.

Not this one. I'll entertain any idea that is sufficiently supported by evidence or logic. That I discredit most of what you say is not proof that I'm selective about what I'll entertain, but rather that you've failed to provide any evidence or logic to support your fantastical claims.

I'd be very curious to see your evidence for this.

Why would misapplication of scripture factor in? They can just use exactly what's printed in the scripture to support their subjugation of women. Did you even read the biblical quotes posted above, or did you just dismiss them?

I'd also be curious for you to explain how Christianity is part of the solution to the problem of male chauvinism, as you indicated that it is a few posts ago, instead of Christianity being well-documented as one of the single biggest proponents of chauvinism in the history of the planet.

Splendour,

What is the difference between 'leadership/headship' and 'dominance/control'?

You can find the Confucian connection yourself.

As for Christianity, faith was by hearing for centuries. If you can't read scripture and see that Christ himself was always treating women better than others and all you know is the Adam and Eve story then you will over emphasize the "cursedness" of women in culture.

People have historically attributed the Fall to Eve, however, a deeper reading reveals Adam forfeited his headship. He had the responsibility to dissuade Eve from eating the apple but went along with Eve instead of overruling her. But as I said above most people are quick to stereotypically attribute the fault to Eve. You have to be a regular student of scripture to pick up on Adam's fault.

No. I have already read Confucius more than once. You need to quit claiming something and then challenging the other person to go look for the evidence that supports your position. It's one of your many, and unflattering, stalling tactics when you don't know what the **** you're talking about.

YOU said there is this connection between Confucius and male chauvinism, now please present your evidence.

I have no responsibility to educate you.

To this day little girls are being aborted and abandoned in China while the Chinese run after male heirs for their family names. 3 years ago they had 20 million men who won't have female partners due to the 1 child per family policy and the resulting female shortage...I don't know what the number of partnerless men in China has grown to since then...

an odd response to discuss chauvinism in China to avoid discussing the obvious chauvinism in the Bible. Well... odd for anyone else.

Of course you don't.

What you do have a responsibility to do is to back up your claims.

You noted a correlation between Confucianism and male chauvinism, and I merely asked you to support that assumption.

That's all well documented. What do you think it has to do with Confucius?