none of this gets god off the hook, it only adds another link. god created everything, including this world, and the devil.

edit: if i create a monstrous robot, and it runs amok and kills lots of people, AND I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN, then yes, id be culpable.

O Really?

The major religion of Haiti is VOODOO!

They did not necessarily make a pact knowingly but because they believe in a false religion that is VERY evil and practice and false religion that is very evil they willingly have jeapordized themselves unknowingly.

They know that there is power in VOODOO which there is towards those that believe in it. Some of them may know that that power comes from the devil and some may not. There is a spiritual realm thats for sure and they were for lack of better words "walking on the dark side as a nation of people".

I do want to stress this, although I know some of the underlying causes of what happened in Haiti, I AM NOT GLAD that people died in Haiti, I am never glad when anyone suffers in anyway no matter how evil they are....

Pletho: are you essentially a Gnostic? There are versions of gnosticism that also postulate a demi-urge ignorant of or opposed to the 'Higher' divine plan/plane of existence.

Yes, though one's nature is changed by the (Biblical) "born again" experience of going to heaven, so to not choose evil.

"For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory."

-- 1 Corinthians 15:53-55 (describing what was yet future at the time, a reality now)

God kept all His power but committed to using it in certain agreed ways in the context of different covenants. I don't have an opinion about how "omni-" applies to that.

No, at least for the reason that there is no suffering in (Biblical) hell.

hell = the grave, corruption, death

In either case, the charlatan (imo) in question is proselytizing a dubious message disguised as something else, the legitimate pretexts being Christianity and the scientific method of investigation respectively.

The creation of humanity is hard to beat in terms of philanthropy.

Depends on what your personal criteria for justified belief are. What are they?

God created all things and gave all things freewill, what happens to those who have that freewill and the consequences of the actions of those with freewill are solely upon the shoulders of those making the decisions by their freewill.

You are typical of most people nowdays, noone wants to accept responsiblity for themselvesor their own decisions and actions.

People are dishonest and ALWAYS want to shift the blame to someone else.....

evidence

um, ok.

now can you answer my question?

i struggle to imagine someone who takes more personal responsibility than an atheist. lacking any supernatural entities to blame for anything, i take full responsibility for my life. im confused why you'd think otherwise.

This pact with the devil also lead to the Louisiana Purchase which doubled the size of America for the price of 3 cents an acre. Thanks Satan! Pletho even resides in the area purchased... you better move Pletho.

If my child is acting up in public, I certainly admonish him for it. However I would consider it a failure on my part if every time we went out he acted up in public. Sure people should take responsibility for their actions. But if they were created by a God, then so should that God.

Incorrect.

If you design and implement a flawed system it is YOU who is responsible for damages that are a direct result of the flaw(s).

You can't have it both ways (although I've never met someone who believes in God who doesn't also think they can). Either this God you refer to created all things and should be held responsible for his screw ups as well as his triumphs (like boobs for example) or you have to back off the 'free will' thing.

ive never fully understood how freewill even gets god off the hook. the parent/child analogy works well here. i wouldnt deny my child freewill to make decisions, but i also wouldnt let that child go around acting like a maniac without reprimand of some sort.

then again, this is probably why you have some christians blaming the victims of natural disasters...theres your mother****ing reprimand, amirite?

Nope not at all, He has set the foundations for all of life in His word and if people ignore it then its their own fault not His.......

It is not a flawed system, freewill does add major dynamics and the ability for error to the system but without that principle then nothing works at all.

Misapplications/misrepresentations of the scientific method are not science. Anything that calls itself Christianity can only be properly termed non-Christian by something else that calls itself Christianity. It's apples and oranges. Again, I'd have agreed if you'd said Dawkins:Philosophy or Dawkins: (qualified) Atheism. But it's of no major consequence.

nope, its flawed.

God is perfect and makes no flawed decisions or mistakes.

The reason you and others think it is a flawed system is because you do not understand the scope and nature and will of God.

You barely if at all understand anything about yourself.....let alone God and His plans.

Okay, then what are your personal criteria for what counts as evidence?

And please don't say "That which justifies belief."

I disagree, taking the Bible (as intended by its authors) as an objective standard.

Very well then. Maybe "philosophy" would have worked better.

With all due respect, this statement is not fully true. I am not commenting on you in particular as I know nothing about you, but there is certainly a contingent of atheists who reject any concept of free will while considering all behavior fully deterministic. Under that ideology (for lack of a better word), the concept of personal responsibility can be weakened or eliminated.

um, ok.

and there are a contingent of theists who think the earth is young, but i wouldnt point this out if i was arguining about theism in general.

So to clarify, you believe that, if God exists, he should not create sentient beings with the freedom of choice?

Someday you're going to have a kid (if you don't already). He's going to grow up, be a dick to his girlfriend, wreck his car, do drugs, bomb crucial college entrance exams, have premarital sex, and just all around spend his time doing the sorts of things that teenagers do, which, as a whole, will cause pain and sadness for himself and for people around him. He'll do this despite your careful teaching, your strict reprimands, and his best intentions.

The other option is what.... lobotomize him at birth and nurse him as a vegetable his whole life?

As a good father, which is the better choice?

really.

by the way, one of your best posts ever. And I mean that.

what are gods reprimands?

I'd rather not have freedom of choice on earth if it means an eternity in heaven. As presented by Christianity, the concept of free will is a horrible thing.

As we're told, our time on earth is a blink of an eye for eternity. As its told by some Christians... you're given the 'gift of free will' by God... in it, you are given choices. Do as god commands or not. And if you choose 'not' - you suffer for eternity.

Which, not only makes god seem immensely cruel for you pay eternally for choices made 'in the blink of an eye.' Furthermore, its not really freewill... in the sense its freewill at the point of a gun. "You can do what you want but God's got a gun pointed at you." Some choice!

the kinder choice is to remove my freewill and guarantee me heaven.

And I can tell you as a parent... if there was a heaven, and I could lobotomize my child so that he went to heaven, lobotomy would be the kindest choice any parent could make.

freewill as presented by the likes of Pletho is just horrible and cruel.