Supersensible and the Initiate

I'm finding discussions about "supersensibility", "religion" and "science" fascinating but pointing to the nature of “supersensibility” is more to the point and so I’ll try. Actually this is more of a historical/evolutionary presentation in order to hopefully set the basis for future discussion.

If I were somehow to find myself as a supersensible (note the word here) being and having direct intercourse with other supersensible beings of whatever type then:

1) I would be dead or;

2) On earth and have developed the power to "leave my senses" and also have developed “supersensible senses" in order to appreciate these other supersensible beings.

Number 2 can become complicated for one can be a trained clairvoyant (seer of supersensible worlds) or natural clairvoyant and it is even possible to become clairvoyant during times of extreme duress such as near drowning or severe shock during an accident.

I'll try to speak to the trained clairvoyant who is able to see the supersensible worlds clearly but must also have the ability to bring these findings to his fellow man and therefore has to be able to fit his findings into a particular language. It is possible to be a trained clairvoyant and not be able to present any findings properly for lack of translation skills for want of a better word(s).

An interesting picture of this is given in Chinese lore in the picture of the "Black Dragon". There are 12 dragons and the leader which makes 13. If my memory serves me right they each were scripted by their appropriate color. Each dragon had his field of expertise and extreme understanding and knowledge of his particular viewpoint of the cosmic happenings. You could say that his viewpoint, though true in itself, was not all encompassing and one gained knowledge from various perspectives.

There were two great individualities in this mystery center, the "Black Dragon" and the "White Dragon". The “Black Dragon" was able, via his strength, courage and development, to see into the deepest regions of the macrocosm (consider man the microcosm) and gain experiential understanding beyond the range of his brethren. He was truly the greatest of the dragons in this manner in this respect but he could not present his findings to his brethren in any shape or form. He could not say the words. This was the work of the "White Dragon".

The "White Dragon", the titular leader of the mystery center, had to, in the case of the "Black Dragon", interpret the findings and present them to the celebrants. At the time in which the Black Dragon would enter into that struggled for state of clairvoyant experience and travel throughout the supersensible world the White Dragon touched his arm and through this touch the White Dragon presented the experiences to the brethren in the speech of the time. Here is something which connects to the religious and scientific experience.

Similar happenings were present throughout the ancient world, in the Greek, Babylonian, Chaldean, and Egyptian mystery centers back to even ancient Persia (Zarathustra) and India (Vedas). It should be noted that the written tomes of ancient Persia and India were written during the ages of Chaldea, Babylonia and Egyptian times but were passed on through speech during India and Persia which of course were more ancient.

The salient point of these mystery centers was that of "initiation". The touching of the White Dragon would not necessarily be the same in the Greek Eleusinian Mystery Center but the trained clairvoyance and bringing forth this news to humanity was characteristic. From these centers came the ancient science of the times. It was a matter of direct perception and presentation. A similar picture of this type of activity is that of Moses before the burning bush and his appreciation of the “I Am". Moses was a great initiate.

Religion, in consideration of the above, is a reconnecting of the human being to that world from which he has fallen. Yes, the western picture is that of the Fall of Man as laid bare by Eden as there are great truths in that powerful story. Moses, in his initiatory ability was able to perceive great periods of time and could very well be called an “initiate of time”. The strength of this picture permeates the individual reincarnating human as a cloak of understanding brought to incarnation from that very world to which the various religions have sought to reunite. The individual man can know the truths of this picture prior to incarnation but upon entering the “physical body” this memory is lost due to the physical forces involved. This does not negate the hidden will forces and indistinct feeling forces from acting as template for the intellect to an understanding and experience of this ‘time entity”. This ‘time entity’ in anthroposophy is called the “etheric body” which as one of the four bodies of man one can appreciate “time’, “memory” and also ‘life’. This would carry us too far but can be the subject of another discussion. As the individual human being has a memory so does the cosmos have a memory which is also connected to the human ability.

And so in the past the great initiates brought their findings to the common man and also were able to bring forth rituals in which the celebrant could bring to others a sense of this “other world” especially in “feeling”. The Catholic mass is an example of ritual which the common man could obtain an experience of the supersensible world in feeling and in fact. Yes, it is a continuation of pagan ceremony but this in no way obviates the Christian exegesis. These rituals were brought to mankind via the initiates and continued on after the Mystery of Golgotha.

In the Greek mystery centers the student, or would be initiate had to undergo difficult trials which included learning of the supersensible world. Dietary measures, control of thoughts and emotions, devotional perspective and other characterological considerations were to be garnered by the student for the strengthening effect was necessary in order to experience that world without falling into error. The difference between the “old” initiation and the present time is clarified by the entry of the intellect during the Grecian epoch (800 BC-1500 AD). Prior to this time “science” was a matter of direct perception and of course with the entry of logic via Aristotle we approach the hegemony of the intellect. This “intellect” was gained by a loss of that direct perception of the supersensible worlds. Mankind had fallen to earth, literally. The initiates, who were individuals, were becoming a rarity for the physical body of the individual man was overcoming his previous sensibilities. The Gnostic overtones at the beginning of our era are examples of an initiatory comprehension prior to Golgotha. The Essenes were of a similar nature.

The “old” initiation was that of individuals but the common man received his supersensible savor, second hand, so to speak. The confluence of traditions, rituals, dogmas and other pointers to that world is the result of the intellect becoming predominant and man’s loss of perception. The idea of bringing all of mankind to a living perception and return to the supersensible world from which he had fallen was not possible within the initiatory rites of “select individuals”. In the initiatory centers the neophyte was placed into a trance by the hierophant and other leaders of the mystery site and through their aid he had his experience of the supersensible world, returned, and brought great tidings to his people. The neophyte was guided by the hierophant and other leaders of the mystery center during the process but was unable to do this individually.


In the New Testament there is mention of the “fig tree” and its subsequent withering. The “fig tree’ or in the case of Buddha the “bodhi tree” are esoteric symbols of the initiation process. The “old initiation’ had ceased to be effective and the new had begun. This is the initiation available to each man through successive incarnations in which, succinctly put, the Christ Being sits in the hearts of mankind in order to bring all men to that home from which he belongs as individuals in freedom and love. The Death on Golgotha was the initiatory process which had previously been practiced within the ancient centers of initiation and was now accomplished upon the world stage. The Christ Being, the “I Am”, had sacrificed his Being and had conquered death in order to be a guide for the future of Man. This is the template to which each man seeks in his planning of future incarnations. The Christ Being incarnated in Jesus of Nazareth at the Baptism by John and walked within this earthly body for three years. The Christ Being does not reincarnate as we are talking of the Word which can be appreciated in the first chapter of the Gospel of John.

The many legends of ancient times were initiatory precursors to the mighty event on Golgotha. The fact that they were alike does not deny Christianity but displays the many peoples, nations and races presenting a direct supersensible fact through the initiatory center. What had been realized in the cosmos (macrocosm) was at the event on Golgotha become fact in the microcosm; in the esoteric way “as above, and so below”. That Great Being, the “Logos”, or the “Word” had entered a body of a man and had conquered death and paved the way of the cosmic future.

That's hot.

seriously?

poetry and destiny are both beautiful ideas, but not the same thing imo

however i admire the effort you put into your OP

If ever cliff notes were needed...

I have produced a commentary by removing most of the words from the original post. The remaining words and phrases were left in their original order. No words were added or altered. Perhaps this commentary will serve as a bridge to understanding of the original:

I'm fascinating so I’ll try a historical presentation in the future. If I were having intercourse with the "Black Dragon", the deepest regions of his mystery center would enter the salient point. The touching would be news to humanity and this type of activity is great.

Religion is a reincarnating cloak of various memory forces acting as the experience of life. As the cosmos is also human, the supersensible logic of man is a Buddha process. The hearts of love had been sacrificed to Jesus by John on Golgotha. The peoples in the cosmos had entered a death future.

carlo,

could you elaborate a little, please?

The best way is to read "Christianity as a Mystical Fact". http://wn.rsarchive.org/Books/GA008/...008_index.html

To a certain extent a knowledge of anthroposophy which speaks to the being of man is not necessary though there may be some spots where it would be helpful.

I'd love to present it from another perspective but this may take some time so I'll have to beg off for now. I'll have to think on presenting this from another perspective but the above book, if read with an open mind, is a much better way to approach the subject.

Tried a few but no cigar.

Short Form: Adam and Eve: natural atavistic clairvoyance and minimal or marginal sensory perception.

The earth and man evolve, gaining greater sensory perception and loss of this clairvoyance.

The mystery centers seek knowledge of that world of which Adam and Eve left. This is the science of the day.

Greek/Roman times found man crashing to the earth's sense bound realities. I believe that Achilles stated 'better a beggar in the upper world than king of the shades". Death had come to the fore and therefore loss of that world from which man has come from at birth and goes to at death. there is darkness in the nether world due to man's loss of clairvoyant abilities.

The Christ Being arrives and at Golgotha lightens up the after world so that man, at death, can find his way.

The future work of man is to gain knowledge of the spiritual world and its relevance to his sensory manifestations. In this man changes his very being (physical/soul/spirit) and in the future state he will be a free individual in manifest love and able to travel through the world lost at the Fall only now as an individual.

The entire earth transforms at the end of time and there will be no mineral kingdom, no time, and no death.

Always, as an after thought, but of supreme importance is reincarnation and karma. We all lived during these past times which have each offered the background for the completion of our destiny.

You don't have to "believe" in reincarnation and karma to understand it but it is a field of study which will certainly open up, flower like, the being of man to ones ken. You can study it as easily as geometry and not lose your sense for truth.

"The Christ Being incarnated in Jesus of Nazareth at the Baptism by John and walked within this earthly body for three years."

So if I am understanding this correctly then the birth of Jesus was not the actual incarnation of the Logos, correct? This incarnation only "lived" in Jesus for three years. What is important here then isn't who Jesus was (prior to incarnation of Logos) but what Jesus IS (after). To identify the Logos with all things that were made, as described in the Gospel of John, and to assume that this is the cosmic future for all mankind, then ideally this Logos must manifest within each of us. Jesus being the first. And so then the Bible is what announces this reality and this reality enters the world via Scripture.

So does Scripture act as the mediator to this transformation or is this transformation inevitable and Scripture just acts as an informant? I guess what I'm asking is what is delaying the process? Does this process of the Logos manifesting in us happen after death or can it manifest "Earthily" as it did in Jesus? Of course I'm not holding you to the answers I'm just thinking allowed and if you can shed some light then great.

Nice thread BTW. I see I'm a few years too late but maybe it will jump start an addition that it sounds as though you have considered.

I'll try, yes the Logos is the Christ Being who incarnated in the body(s) of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus of Nazareth was a great initiate who through many lives had purified his bodies to such an exstent that the Logos could incarnate in the same. I know you've read some anthroposophy and each of us has 4 bodies; physical, etheric, astral and "Ego" or body of the "I". Jesus of Nazareth was indeed a savior of mankind in that he scarified his "Ego" in order for the Logos or Christ Being to incarnate on the earth. The Christ worked through the bodies of Jesus of Nazareth and therefore one can say, while on earth, prior to Golgotha, he is called Christ Jesus.

At Golgotha He overcame death and in this He became the Spirit of the Earth whereas previously He approached the earth and worked without. The prophesies of the Bible and Pagan prophesies all pointer to the time when that Great Being known to the ancient Indian as Vishva Karmen, to the ancient Persians, Ahura Mazdao , dunnno the reference in Egyptology or Grecian times. It is important to realize that each of these primitive cultures had their own particular perspective due to their limitations and so it was "their look" not what one would call a "comprehensive look( bad words here but i hope you get the drift)". He was indeed a Mystery.

At the death on golgotha He entered into the earth and can be appreciated in the etheric body of Man, each in his way. A little lesson on the etheric body as it is that body which holds the mineral kingdom together on the body of Man. At death the minerals release themselves and the etheric body presents with the panorama of life in that some have witnessed that "my life flashed before my eyes". Therefore it is also called the formative force body. It is also the "life body' in that "life" is present within Man while on the earth. It is also a body of "light". Reading "Theosophy' by Rudolph Steiner can clarify this. One can then relate to the saying of Christ Jesus "I am the Life and the Light".

One can say that the Christ Being, the Logos, sits in the hearts of Man who gradually learns of the Christ Being and therefore becomes transformed of which a transformation the physical body becomes spiritualized. The Christ being is not of determiancy for otherwise how can you and I be transformed unless we manifested this transformation? Therefore the idea of 'freedom" comes to the fore. One perspective on this "freedom' is freedom from heredity which in religious parlance is associated with the "Fall of Man" and very much is associated with "sin". the transformation of Man is accomplished through repeated lives, thusly, reincarnation and karma.

Scripture or the Holy Bible is a source of strength in the sense of drinking a glass of water, not assuming that an analysis is necessary for its essence. The Bible and especially the four Gospels were written by initiates from their own particular perspective which is effective for all of us. If one looks to the Revelation of john and notes the Eagle, Bull, Lion and Man which surround the throne of God one can relate to Mathew (Man, Theology), Mark ( Lion,Jurist), Luke(Bull, Healer) and John (Eagle, Philosopher). The gospel of John is a mighty picture of the future state of Mankind. All of the above Gospels should be read for to specialize in one or the other is to give a not quite true picture of the Christ Being. The above Men were initiates who saw and read the story of Christ Jesus in the Cosmic Light, again from their respective esoteric perspectives( mystery centers), which is akin to the memory of Man; a cosmic memory.

Each of us carries the Cosmic Light in our hearts and in this way we bring forth Compassion and Love, and transform the Earth Wisdom into Love.

Can't forget to note that we are soul/spiritual beings and that which experiences the panorama at death is our soul /spiritual being related to our astral body (bearer of passions, desires) and ego or thought body, our immortal "I".

I'll add a little to the question about the Holy Bible as it wasn't clear, at least in my mind. Reading the Bible is akin to taking in nourishment. You don't have to "know" how our digestive system works or the intricacies of the foodstuff in order to eat for otherwise we would all die of starvation. The Bible is the same, it nourishes and strengthens the soul of Man. The New Testament is an expression of Love while the Old Testament is an expression of "timor" or fear. Each, absolutely necessary in the recreation of Man.

I made it halfway through Christianity as a Mystical Fact last night so I have a much better handle on where you are going with the OP. But naturally this is something that can't be put together over night so I'll just throw out one question at a time as I try to put the pieces together.

Trying to figure out Jesus is the hard part for me because on one hand his story seems to start out like that of yours or mine (in that he really was just a normal child who discovered this "calling" within). And then on the other hand his story describes a virgin birth, aligned stars, and prophecies that yours and mine are lacking. So relating to Jesus is both easy and difficult when trying to understand exactly what role I can play in becoming an initiate of his.

But most confusing for me is learning that the mystics and initiates before Jesus were able to accomplish this connection to the Logos. - Or maybe I should say, they were able to "creatively awaken the God inside." So then if this Logos was present in times before then what exactly changed to make the Logos the Holy Spirit and therefore put all focus on Jesus? Or maybe I shouldn't be relating the Holy Spirit to the Logos? But I think I'm safe in doing so..

aahhh, I know there are so many nooks and crannies that need to be crossed before this comes together.

EDIT: After rereading your OP I found this that helps clarify my question in that what Jesus accomplished was what others also accomplished, just not on the "world stage":

The Death on Golgotha was the initiatory process which had previously been practiced within the ancient centers of initiation and was now accomplished upon the world stage. The Christ Being, the “I Am”, had sacrificed his Being and had conquered death in order to be a guide for the future of Man. This is the template to which each man seeks in his planning of future incarnations.

..which brings me to one more question that I've had for a very. long. time..

You stated: The Christ Being, the “I Am”, had sacrificed his Being and had conquered death

Once again I'm not holding you to any answers but this is something that confuses me..

"HOW" did The Christ Being conquer death with this sacrifice?

Are we talking "technical terms" that man cannot fully understand or are we talking common knowledge that I just missed out on?

EDIT: The words Christ Being, Logos, Spirit etc assume the "God position", so how is it that God needed to conquer anything?

[QUOTE=BigErf;24166264]I made it halfway through Christianity as a Mystical Fact last night so I have a much better handle on where you are going with the OP. But naturally this is something that can't be put together over night so I'll just throw out one question at a time as I try to put the pieces together.

Trying to figure out Jesus is the hard part for me because on one hand his story seems to start out like that of yours or mine (in that he really was just a normal child who discovered this "calling" within). And then on the other hand his story describes a virgin birth, aligned stars, and prophecies that yours and mine are lacking. So relating to Jesus is both easy and difficult when trying to understand exactly what role I can play in becoming an initiate of his.





One thing at a time. In pre Christian times "initiation" was of exceptional individuals who had transformed themselves to such an extent that through SELFLESSNESS they could bring evidence of the spiritual world to humanity. They had transformed themselves through multiple lives and were literally the scientists/religious leaders/kings,etc... of their age. Initiation was especially for special people. As I noted previously "initiation" in the old mystery centers( old way) is no longer possible (fig tree) and with the advent of Christ ALL OF HUMANITY is being brought forward within the Christ Impulse to the appreciation of spiritual worlds which is what initiation is.

The "old way" was immersed within a loss of "ego consciousness( trance consciousness)" and we see echos of this in specific religious and philosophical meanderings calling for "submission of the Ego". The new way is the CONSCIOUS appreciation, perceiving and living within the spiritual world as individual beings, human beings. Takes time, but you can be sure it is not for the supposed elite but for ALL MEN.

I know there are a lot of "nooks and crannies" as you mentioned but it would seem that one's perspective has to include the idea of multiple lives, reincarnation and karma. Many questions in our time, are related to only one life and don't display the comprehensiveness needed to appreciate the world in any manner, especially Christ Jesus.

It was a particular destiny of Rudolph Steiner's to bring the teachings of reincarnation and karma to mankind and I would recommend this to anyone including yourself. Reading "Occult Science, An Outline" and "Theosophy" will add breadth to your meanderings and from there read on studies of reincarnation and karma. this will allow a much broader perspective to which one can progress in spiritual understanding.