So we can get to the end of this thread and because everyone else has already covered the relevant points with regards to the graph and study.

And? Let's hear from you why it's relevant or important at all.

The significance of the "flaws" of the Op graph should not be taken as debunking the notion that religion(culture as well) does seem to play a role in preventing suicide . I could easily see how religion(not just Islam) plays a role in deterring people from committing suicide as opposed to folks with no religious beliefs.

Like others have said suicide sending you to hell or not getting a good next life might have something to do with it.

Tame_deuces already covered this, and I would tend to agree with him. There are various aspects of religion and/or culture that could lessen the risk of suicide. But let's cash that out in real terms, what does it mean or what comes out of the idea that religious and cultural practices could lessen the probability of suicide?

Yeah, me too. I'm quite confident being religious is likely to reduce your chance of committing suicide, in fact. It's just that this study doesnt show that and doesnt purport to show that.

Believing the truth for the wrong reasons is a bad thing.

It's their job.
No, I'm questioning the conclusions you're drawing from it. It's not overreach, it's comprehension.
Yes. This has nothing to do with what I said.

Misrepresentation of statistics/graphs - Yes
Comparisons contrived purely to make Saudi Arabia look good - Yes
Responses bearing no relation to the quoted - Yes

All the hallmarks of a 9/10 Kid thread.

This last point you make seems like a reach in the sense that North Korea is an atheist nation(this thread talks about Atheist suicide rates) in which there is an issue wrt suicide, don't get me wrong these folks in North Korea live like slaves which certainly parlays into a difficult living situation. But then again one can note Japan has a very high suicide rate and a rather large atheist population. Religion is Japan is quite insignificant, compared to a nation like Morocco.


Bunny, before you can say this has nothing to do with what I said, my recent comments have everything to do with the notion that religion plays a role in preventing suicide.

To address bladesman and bluffsoften, certain posters itt may have a thought process in which they believe I think religious people are somehow better then atheists, this is not the case, nor do I think Muslims are better then non-Muslims.

I didn't say you think religious people are better than non-religious people.

I think you're quite likely a troll, but if you're not a troll then you're incapable of responding directly to what a person says. Rather you reply with entirely wandering thoughts having nothing to do with the post you reply to.

Which is evidenced by me having said nothing like what you just said I did.

To accurately compare this analogy to the worthless chart, you'd have to assume only black people live in the south and only white people live in the north, and then show the difference between income in the two halves of America.

I've always been interested in why people commit suicide regardless of their belief system and values. When I investigated things further all the data I seen pointed to atheists committing suicide more often than a religious person. I don't know what conclusions I can draw from this only my subjective opinion, but I'm curious to reasons why this may be. Obviously it depends on any single individual environment and circumstances but why does it happen more often who is an atheist.

I wonder if they find life to be absurd like I do. To get up every morning to do what exactly? At least if I was a Christian I would have a good feeling that at least God cares about me even if the world doesn't. The truth for me is that the world and society doesn't give a dam about you and especial the young male.

This is of course my own opinion and in my own experience when I interact with others I find they turn to drink or drugs (those who don't have faith) because the common theme is they find life absolutely boring. They find themselves in dead end jobs, trapped in a loveless marriage and having kids they can't support with no one to turn to. As a man the burden more often that not rest on his shoulders to step up and be a man. There is no outlet here of the built up tension (so they turn to drink and drugs), there is no hope. Here is a dead person.

I'm sure all the atheists who post on 2+2 have great lives and I can't fault them so to them this doesn't apply. I just find this to be a more common theme with the people I know in my life. And I'm not saying that religious folk can't be like this, I'm sure they do and I#m sure it happens to them as well, but they have God (either real or not) on their side and they feel refuge here in him that somehow there is hope and God might turn it around. But to the atheist it all rests on his shoulders and if you are not smart (like me) who the hell is going to help? Because I know I can't help myself (not smart enough) I can't figure out why life is so absurd and stupid.

Well, then you might also be looking at a confounding variable as the notion that you "find life absurd" that might possibly also cause you to be irreligious.

Suicide is a big problem for society, both economically and socially. Some groups are overrepresented, claiming that noting this is "meaningless" or "worthless" is patently absurd.

This is a descriptive statistic and a well known one at that, nothing else. That you and others look at it and imagine it contains conclusions you find silly is really on yourselves and nobody but yourselves.

Without addressing the data from the OP, there are several potential causes I can see for why atheists might have higher suicide rates (say restricted to western countries and adjusting for other major socioeconomic factors..if this is even true). Some religions have explicit prohibitions against suicide built into them, we the understanding that if you commit suicide you are damning yourself to an eternity burning in hellfire. Seems like a bit of a disincentive...although who knows if this even registers for people in a suicidal state. While not true for western countries generally, there are places in the US where being an out atheist would lead one to be a social pariah, cut off from ones family, open to bullying in high school and the like. I suspect a lot of the factors that go into high rates of LGBT teen suicides could be similar for atheist teens. On a plus side for religion, religion often builds a lot of community and support out from a church group which I suspect could decrease suicide rates. And there is probably a higher tendency to see the world as pointless and arbitrary if one is an athiest. So I wouldn't be surprised if it was true.

just curious, but i'm assuming that everyone is under the impression (or arguing from the perspective) that suicide is a bad thing that we shouldn't do. is it really though?

http://www.science20.com/rationally_...suicide-127843

I've seen most of those arguments before, and they tend to overlook the single grim fact that almost all suicides (at least in our "western" societies) are accompanied by severe despair, anxiety or depression.

Those are states of mind very few people choose to hold. I don't think I have ever met anyone who states "I think I'll be acutely depressed today and see where it takes me". The notion of the "rational suicide" might not be a myth, but it is certainly not the norm.

I don't believe in God for many reasons (or lack there off). Its not my fault that I find life absurd . There are no reasons that I can see to think otherwise.

Without suggesting that the statements below represent "severe despair, anxiety, or depression," the types of statements that Robin Agrees make are representative of the characteristics that I think t_d is referring to.

Robin Agrees sees life as absurd and does not feel in control of that belief. This type of feeling (magnified by the things that cause clinical depression) can lead to a "rational suicide" in the sense that the person is under the belief that suicide really is the best option. From the linked article:

Whether such assessments are "true" (in whatever sense needed to make the suicide appear "rational") are often heavily shaded by generally negative perspectives on life, regardless of whether those perspectives are "true" (as some sort of reflection of an objective reality).

My argument can summed up by saying people who believe in god have the same feeling that people have who feel connected to family, friends and work as a reason to live, both in my opinion are arbitrary just because family and friends are real the feeling itself is subjective.

Err....it might have something to do with what you said. It has nothing to do with what I said. I was pointing out that you don't understand what the results presented in that graph mean, not disputing your conclusion.

I think religion plays a role in preventing suicide, in that religious people are less likely to kill themselves thanks to their religion.

This study doesn't support that conclusion, nor does it purport to.

The study itself says:

"Certainly, these findings do not take personal levels of religiosity into consideration; however, they might indicate the importance of the religious context, i.e. the prevalence of a religion in a country, in relation to suicide deaths, as a major cultural factor in the determination of suicide."

Which is hardly objectionable, nor terribly surprising.

Thekid345 chooses to read this as:

"At the same time, according to the chart in the OP we also see a higher prevalence of suicide rates among Buddhist/Christian males compared to Christian females.

Even within the Atheists, we see a notable gap between the suicide rates of Atheist Males compared to the suicide rates of Atheist females."

I'm objecting to his silly conclusions, not the study's.

Yeah I was mistaken TD in previously saying the study was meaningless. I was objecting (perhaps prematurely) to where I thought OP was going. I agree with what bunny stated above.

Who did this, and where?

Who did this, and where?

You seem to have imagined I made conclusions that you find silly, which is really on you and nobody but you.

All I did was mock the silly methodology vis-à-vie religious categorization.

You did.

These are the rates according to nation,Greenland???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate