Let's go back to the OP.

What is the mind of Christ?
What is the carnal mind?
Do you have the mind of Christ?

Tell me how you find Gehenna, the word often translated to hell in the NT, as sanctifying fire.

For those who don't know what Gehenna is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

If you're willing to go away from "normal" Christian doctrine, you might as well keep going. Universalism fits well with reincarnation, which is the model that we are living in.

Christian reincarnation

Jones on his chapter on Gehenna says:

"Gehenna, then, was really a prophetic judgment directed against Jerusalem and its citizens who refused to believe the prophets or accept the Messiah. It did not directly refer to the actual state or place of the dead, which is Hades."

For more detail see:

The Judgments of the Divine Law
This book devotes a separate chapter to each of the words translated "hell" in the New Testament: Tartarus, Gehenna, and Hades. It also deals with the biblical nature of the "lake of fire" and its duration as "eonian." It concludes with a historical chapter, showing what many of the early Christian fathers believed about divine judgment and how it was restorative, rather than destructive.

Chapter 1: Tartarus

Chapter 2: Gehenna

Chapter 3: Hades

Chapter 4: The Lake of Fire

Chapter 5: The Eonian Judgment

Chapter 6: What the Greek Church Fathers Believed

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.o...klet.cfm?PID=6

I looked into it but I'm undecided on it.

The bible is addressed to believers and it says we have one life.

I don't know if God could make an exception for reincarnation for unbelievers but if universalism is true he doesn't have to.

Under Buddha you reincarnate.

But who would want to reincarnate when there's so much suffering on the wheel of karma?

Christ is the ladder to heaven and future resurrection.

The Ladder of Divine Ascent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ladder_of_Divine_Ascent

versus The Wheel of Life:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_o...d_layer:_karma

Please stop linking me to this heretic. Jones deforms God's word to fit his beliefs instead of letting God's word reform his beliefs.

Let's have a discussion. I'm not into the 'who can link the most' sort of thing.

Just wow... lmao

I think i'm understanding now.
The spiritual mind is merely the mind which pertains to God.

Hence; it is not a "mind" at all, it is an approach to a relationship- requiring, as all do, logic and emotion.
Is this correct? What else can there be?

Not exactly.

There's no understanding this without first being a believer.

You can watch tennis or you can play tennis.

They're not the same thing. One is passive and one is active.

You have to have both active and passive working together to understand.

How is one active and passive at the same time?

No.

I don't want a discussion. I want the truth from a real search not someone's reasoned opinion.

God says seek and you shall find.

I'm tired of people thinking they will set themselves up as petty authorities.

I'm working towards a Stage IV....and not plan on returning to a Stage I or II any time soon....

Peck's idea of the stages:
http://www.factnet.org/Stages_Of_Spiritual_Growth.html

> Dr. Jones says not to listen to people who do this!

On a more serious note, the problem (I see) with your "stages of spiritual growth" link is that there's no reason to believe one stage leads to the next other than the author's blind assertion that things go from stage 1 to 4 in that order. Explain?

Also, if I had to peg you I'd put you at stage 2. You should learn from all us higher level stage 3 thinkers. But if you want to stay spiritually underdeveloped, that's your call

No, he doesn't.

That's my conclusion.

But that was tongue in cheek

I edited my post above and am interested in your response. Even in the expanded section, the author more or less asserts "if you're in stage 3 and squint just right and look the right way, you'll see the light and become stage 4!"...why should anyone accept this statement?

No there's no reason to believe if you didn't attempt to study it. Peck did and imo he loosely confirms there are spiritual steps. Peck moved from atheism to Buddhism to Christianity.

I have a lot in common with Peck. He thinks a lot like me.

And no you should be very careful about who your spiritual teachers are in this world. I prefer Jesus Christ above all others. It's just Dr. Jones puts together the best blend of knowledge and wisdom from biblical principles that I've seen yet.

I'm a work in progress but I'm smart enough to let God correct me rather than men who set themselves up as authority when they've skipped a lot of steps.

Knowing which steps are crucial and building them in order is essential. I want an upright faith not the Leaning Tower of Pisa.

I don't count myself as perfectly in any stage.

If you ask me God is constantly cycling us through stages. Judaism described Him as a potter.

Alright. So you're accepting Peck's argument from authority? I'll grant you that through Peck's religious experiences and study he has come to the conclusion that there are 4 spiritual stages which exist in a given order. Is the fact that "he's thought about it a lot and we're similar" enough for you to accept this?

Also, with regard to Dr. Jones, a bit earlier in this thread Wizard voiced disagreement ("stop linking to this heretic", I believe) with Dr. Jones' positions. I'm in no position to say that Wizard is more correct/he's done more study than Dr. Jones etc, but I think it's clear that in the Christian religion there are many differing viewpoints even among those who have dedicated their entire lives to the study of scripture. Why many of Dr. Jones' positions as opposed to these other thinkers? Is there more than the fact that his words resonate with you and your current Christian Universalist beliefs?

Jones was raised in Tozer's church. He's a former missionary who graduated to being a biblical scholar.

Btw Wiz it's perfectly ok from my point of view for you to be in any stage just as long as you know God is leading you through the steps.

Find anything in the bible that says eternal hell doctrine interpretations have to prevail. It doesn't say it. Men who are obsessed with being right say it. God imo isn't as fixated as people he's always working on us in stages. It says in the bible God doesn't rest or grow weary.

"And I am certain that God, who began the good work within you, will continue his work until it is finally finished on the day when Christ Jesus returns." NLT Philippians 1:6

Peck doesn't make an argument. He was just a well educated psychiatrist who observed things and wrote down what he observed.

Dr. Jones at one time was a traditionalist. But was informed of the universalist position. He disbelieved it at first then checked into it and conceded to universalism. His interpretations are backed by a historical perspective he has bothered to learn about in great detail.

He's even written a work outlining the history of Christianity.

Let me rephrase. You accept Peck's claim that there are ordered spiritual stages (and the characteristics of each stage). Is there more behind this acceptance than the fact that you think similarly and you believe he's studied the issue in-depth?

And again, there are many traditionalist Christians who have considered and discounted the Universalist view. I would think that at least some of these Christians have also devoted a sizable amount of their lives towards religious study. The fact that he's a legitimate Christian author certainly gives him more credence than a given churchgoer, but it definitely doesn't distinguish him from many other serious Christians (ministers, other Christian writers, or to go even further people high in the Catholic hierarchy (cardinals, the pope, etc)). So why do you accept his views so lightly?

Peck is most likely the only psychiatrist in the world who ever bothered to study the claim of demonic possession personally. He even wrote a book on it. It's quite likely the rest of the psychiatric community has been cowed into a group (herd) mentality on the subject. Getting out of line in the psychiatric community can have professional consequences. Peck was a risk taker because he knew it was a vital question so he bucked the herd and did his own studies.

I didn't accept universalism so lightly. It took years of reflection and bible study before I moved there. Dr. Jones is just a wonderful clarifier and he supports everything he says with the scriptures.

Btw links do teach.

They introduce you to concepts to consider and they broaden your mind through an increase in knowledge.

Knowledge broadens opinions alot.

Peck did no studies on demonic possession. He began believing in it after converting to Christian faith, and wrote about some anecdotal accounts of exorcism in a couple of his books. But I don't see how this is related at all to accepting his "steps of spiritual growth". So he was a free thinker. And...?

Also, much of the scripture can be interpreted as having multiple meanings. This fact is basically what spawned the entire field of apologetics, not to mention the entire protestant movement. Why do you place his words above others? I think it's telling that you're very inspired by him while another theist (Wizard, in this case) can believe he's a heretic. There's scriptural support for an extremely wide range of views.

Do any of the other believers here know what she's talking about?

Peck participated in exorcisms and studied them and kept patient notes on them. To me that's a type of very specific study however the scientific community wants to downplay it. Like I said afaik he's the only one who's bothered to scientifically research demonic possession from a trained psychiatric viewpoint.

Quote:
The underlying premise of Peck's work is that psychological health equals spiritual health and that much mental illness signals a disconnection from fundamental spiritual truths. The Road Less Traveled synthesizes Peck's clinical observations with his understanding about diverse spiritual paths, ranging from Christianity to Buddhism.

Quote from an essay on Peck's bestseller The Road Less Travelled:
http://www.directessays.com/viewpaper/201382.html
I've said enough about Jones above so I'm not revisiting questions on him itt.