In my opinion, you have yet to DEMONSTRATE that it is hypocritical to love animals and eat meat.

"Don't over think it" and "Don't get caught up in the minutia" are red flags to me in a rational discussion.

"Living longer" is an ASSERTION, not an argument until the premises are provided. Same for the moral claim.

Arguments are a chain of reasoning resulting in a conclusion.

Here's a large study about vegetarians and vegans:


https://www.huffpost.com/entry/veget...3uJG-RFchl32bU

Nah. I already tried to science you, but then you went on to make arbitrary distinctions and non-scientific claims like plants not being alive or whatever nonsense.

Again, you're making these claims without any historical backing. When mankind was eating animals thousands of years ago, whose agenda was being pushed?

Did you know that 100% of the populace breathes oxygen? It must be some conspiracy because why would so many people agree on something?

There are some lovely flat eathers who would like to join you in your crusade of wokeness.

If I can save just one person, it would all be worth it....

Oh, don't think! No wonder this is so easy for you! Who cares about logic, reason, or science! JUST GET WOKE!!!

In fairness, he didn't say "don't think", he said "don't OVER think" (whatever that means).

One thing you don't get, Aaron, is that Logic, Reason and Science are controlled by Big Meat, which is in cahoots with Big Pharma and the Deep State, etc.

Pretty clear that vegetarian is the way to go, health wise. Did it for about a year some time back. Gonna do it again, I think!

Starting today!!!

So, is the game solved or is it not?

If its not, Im pretty sure you should be able to find a reason why it is even a question. Even one of the biggest questions we (humanity) got in our current condition as far as Im concerned.

Yup the proof is in how it makes you feel

this isnt gaslighting. You should probably look it up.

This is getting caught up in the minutia... yes plants are breathing (the word I was looking for is plants are conscious, have a central nervous system, and have a heart and lungs to breath aka sentient beings that are different than plants) and poker may or may not be solved (I mean it’s attempted to be solved). But let’s not get caught up on this let’s think bigger picture here. I made a bad analogy that actually has nothing to do with anything and is a thread derail. I was just trying to bring the horse to water to show what we as humans are really doing.

So let’s start over and maybe a 2nd vegetarian will emerge from this thread..

Are you against animal cruelty?

Are you ok with killing animals to eat?

If yes to first one and yes to second question then are you conflicted at all?

Is there a humane way to kill animals? (Hint the word humane means to have compassion)

The irony is the science supports what I’m saying too... meat cheese dairy and eggs are all high in cholesterol and cause blood clots; heart disease is the number one killer in the USA. So ya I think it’s the meat and dairy lobby forcing us to stay sick. And as far as thousands of years ago people didn’t eat the amount of meat and dairy because mostly there wasn’t farms raising animals for slaughter on the massive scale like it is done today. You should research big pharma and tell me they don’t want everyone heavily medicated. When you get sick the doctor tells you to not eat or drink dairy? I wonder why that is...

You’re whole argument is disingenuous and it seems you’re too married to your world views to ever consider change. Before you obfuscate and debate just realize I once was a meat eater who loved cheese. I was able to crush my ego enough to accept I was wrong all those years? Can you do the same?

I will answer your questions as a former vegetarian for about a year, and a current vegetarian for several days: (Fell off the wagon briefly when I was in the ER a little less than two weeks ago)

Yes
Yes
No
Unsure

A recurring "problem" in this thread is the jumping backing and forth between the MORALITY of eating animals, and the HEALTH BENEFITS of vegetarianism.

You may want to reevaluate what you mean by "science supports what I'm saying." Did you know that anything you eat can kill you if you eat enough of it? Maybe you shouldn't eat anything at all! It's SCIENCE!

The reasoning you're putting forward is the same level of argumentation that people put forward for homeopathic remedies for things. I'm also reminded of the dihydrogen monoxide articles that scientifically illiterate people read and get panicky over.

Maybe we should look at the information that's available:

Eggs:

https://www.heartfoundation.org.au/h...ein-foods/eggs

And in case you're getting weird ideas, here's what the heart foundation does:

So, yeah... totally biased information here. There's no way that this organization would possibly put forward factual information about the relationship between eggs and heart disease, right? They're just bought off by the chicken industry.

<sigh>

You're free to think whatever you want. The fact that you thought it doesn't make it either true or convincing.

Clearly, it's a massive conspiracy. Did you know that 100% of people who visit the doctor eventually die? That's right! EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM DIES! And do you know who dies at a higher frequency? Sick people and old people. Doctors are really in the business of killing sick and old people. I don't know why anyone who is sick or old would ever want to visit a doctor.

So. Much. Irony.

The *classic* fallback position of conspiracy theorists is to put forward "I'm woke, you're not" argumentation when their other arguments are shown to be false. Because really, it has nothing to do with facts or information. It's clearly just an ego problem that most of the rest of the world has, except for those few "woke" people who see reality for what it really is, and all of the other mindless peons that are just following along have no clue what they're talking about because they've reached different conclusions from you.

Edit: You were doing so much better when you were sticking to the Socratic method and just asking questions. Because when you stopped asking questions and started making assertions, you showed how bad your logic is. At least when you're asking questions, we would just say that the questions are asinine or something like that. But now your reasoning has been laid bare, and you clearly have nothing of intellectual merit to present us.

His goal seems to be to get people to be vegetarian. This thread rekindled my interest in the topic, and now I am (temporarily?) Vegetarian again.

So, "mission accomplished", I suppose.

Agree with all your points in your post, though.

Mr logic Aaron,

Your egg article says it matters what you eat with eggs and then goes on to suggest you don’t eat bacon, you do eat 2 sides of veggies, and also suggest making an omelette w mushrooms and whole grain bread etc...

It also says that for certain people at risk like those with type 2 diabetes more than 7 eggs a week is not suggested.

So basically your article subtlety tells you to make sure you eat a whole food plant based diet when eating your eggs.

—-

This isn’t an argument. You can and will be able to find evidence to support both sides. I’m not convinced by your evidence like you will never be convinced of mine.

The only evidence that should matter is that vegans on average live 7 years longer. If this is true that would be all the “logic” I would need no?

I suppose we can argue health benefits all day...

That’s why the spiritual approach of not hurting any sentient beings is my go to...

The fact veganism also might be healthier is just icing on the cake. Even if veganism wasn’t healthier I would still be vegan because it’s wrong to kill something for my own pleasure. If I don’t need it to survive then it’s wrong to kill something. It’s that simple. The logic is sound. You might not agree with it Bc you’re incapable of seeing animals as sentient and different than plants.

But the thing is veganism just might also be healthier... so the one case you could make for not being vegan might actually not be true.

I’m honest enough to say the science is inconclusive...

All I know is in my anecdotal evidence everyone around me got sick this year.. in the past I used to get 2-3 sinus infections per year. My wife whom I sleep next to got a sinus infection and she’s not vegan and I managed to not get one (maybe I did but the symptoms were so minor she went to dr and I feel fine)

I’ve read this is one of the benefits of being vegan that it reverses a lot of disease and limits sickness. It matches my own experience.

I don't think I have argued anywhere that it's unhealthy to eat whole grain bread. I'm putting this forward because it directly contradicts your assertion that eggs cause high cholesterol.

Yes, it's true that on the internet you can find someone supporting your position regardless of what it is. However, I'm not convinced of your "evidence" because you put none forward (just assertions) and that health organizations reject your specific statements.

Correlation vs. causation. People who are vegan are generally of higher socioeconomic status, which increases access to medical care and other benefits of that type including more being more likely to exercise regularly. It's also worth noting that the evidence does not separate out moderate and non-moderate consumption habits.

If someone eats a balanced diet that includes lots of grains and vegetables, and then also meat, dairy, and eggs in moderate amounts, there's no particular evidence that I've seen that says veganism beats out that type of diet. I think that goes beyond the evidence.

The evidence primarily shows that unbalanced diets are unhealthy.

What's amusing is that most of your argumentation is about the health benefits, and now you're abandoning it when evidence has been presented that mostly shows that your health argumentation is terrible.

And we're back to your other argumentation that plants are somehow not living things.

Right... "Honest" is totally the word for your position.

I know a guy that was super fit and ate healthy, and did a lot of running, and died of a heart attack at age 28. All I know is that my anecdotal evidence is that he died, and therefore I running is bad for your health. And I know a person whose doctors detected signs of cancer, they prayed about it, and then at the next doctors appointment they couldn't find anything anymore. Clearly, we should all draw very strong conclusions based on our limited evidence.

Saying that changes were good for you is great, and you should do things that are healthy for you. The part where things go sideways is when you start making false claims and bad moral (and scientific) arguments. There's nothing wrong with saying "I made these changes and my health got better." I think the moral superiority (combined with the intellectual inferiority) is where things go off the rails.

It's also ironic that you open with this whole sense that this is a moral/spiritual position, but at the end of the post you close up with arguing for health as your ultimate justification. It makes me wonder if you would have stuck with veganism if your health deteriorated after the switch.

The spiritual and health reasons are actually connected..

Take alkaline water you do understand the heath benefits of it?

If you don’t:
basically ph-alkaline water is good for you because disease naturally occurs in acidic environments. So by drinking alkaline water you’re combating disease.

Now think in terms of the world is electromagnetic.. when a message is sent from your brain it uses and electrical-like transfer. Same with your heart I believe it’s sodium and potassium causing a beat.

So the connection is that the high alkaline things raise your vibration which is electrically based.

What does this have to do with veganism... well we understand the health benefits in water but what does that translate to in food?

High vibration/alkaline food is whole food plant based with beets and colorful vegetables being the most alkaline thing you can eat and sugar/meats/dairy the most acidic thing for your body to eat.

So in conclusion a whole food plant based diet will raise your vibration by creating an alkaline environment in your body making it difficult to facilitate disease. Since we are electric in nature and we are also spiritual in nature it only makes sense that our Heath is tied to our spirituality and vise versa.

Scientific illiteracy at its finest. Good luck with your vibrator.

Edit: My point still clearly stands. You structured your central claim around how it's not really about health ("The fact veganism also might be healthier is just icing on the cake"). But your argument seems to hinge on your personal experience with changes in your health.

All that belief in "Science" based on research others have done, that you trust on blind faith is cute. It's almost like...it's a religion.