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So did Jesus rise from the dead? So did Jesus rise from the dead?

08-24-2010 , 12:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyme
Discovering mysterious forces does not make some random other claim of a mysterious force more likely. X-rays didn't make voodoo more likely, magnetism didn't make "the force" more likely, untraviolet rays didn't clairvoyance more likely, .. on and on. By now all those "more likely's " should be pushing on "1" for some of this stuff.
There is a claim of a mysterious force/event - it is weighed by the evidence for it. The only increase in probability that comes from other phenomena are those in the same family with similar features. Bending spoons held in your hand contributes nothing to our usual "supernatural" events one way or the other. I can pick up salt off the counter just by passing my hand above it. de-da-de-da-de-de-de-de...
I did quite clearly write supernatural; obviously the discovery of previously baffling physical phenomena does nothing to change the probabilities.
Seeing someone proving actual magical powers would.
I am not sure how you would manage to mix supernatural and deterministic phenomena here, were you getting at the idea, that every physical phenomenon appears magical until it is explained?

This is some bump; it seems our new troll/gimmick is hard at work.
So did Jesus rise from the dead? Quote
08-24-2010 , 12:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by skalf
I did quite clearly write supernatural; obviously the discovery of previously baffling physical phenomena does nothing to change the probabilities.
Seeing someone proving actual magical powers would.
I am not sure how you would manage to mix supernatural and deterministic phenomena here, were you getting at the idea, that every physical phenomenon appears magical until it is explained?
.
I was getting at in order for learning something new to affect another situation there must be some connection. Finding out I have blue socks doesn't affect the likely shape of rocks in Ibizia.
There are two types of situations - those with an explanation that fits the big picture and has specific evidence for it and those that we don't know what is going on. Doesn't really matter what we call "unknown explanations", they only appear magical if we believe "magic" is itself an explanation, otherwise they are just another "unknown reasons".
hope that's clearer ... usually I just muddy it up as I go.
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08-24-2010 , 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyme
I was getting at in order for learning something new to affect another situation there must be some connection. Finding out I have blue socks doesn't affect the likely shape of rocks in Ibizia.
There are two types of situations - those with an explanation that fits the big picture and has specific evidence for it and those that we don't know what is going on. Doesn't really matter what we call "unknown explanations", they only appear magical if we believe "magic" is itself an explanation, otherwise they are just another "unknown reasons".
hope that's clearer ... usually I just muddy it up as I go.
Now I generally agree with bolded, but the problem with it in this context is, that it presupposes a deterministic universe.
When I talk about affirming supernatural powers, I mean learning that there actually are beings capable of suspending reality by an act of will.
I certainly agree that we are extremely unlikely to see this, and that when we appear to, we are just not seeing the full picture.
However IF supernatural powers were to be demonstrated to be a reality, that would make the resurrection story far more plausible.
So did Jesus rise from the dead? Quote
08-24-2010 , 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by David Sklansky
There are plenty of atheists here who will not admit that if Uri Geller is legit it substantially increases the chances that Christ was resurrected.
I will admit that if Uri Geller is legit, then it is more likely we are in the Matrix.
So did Jesus rise from the dead? Quote
08-24-2010 , 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelchyBeau
I heard one theory a while ago, but I can't remember where, it could have been conveyed to me in this forum. I just don't remember.

But the question arises, did Jesus die when they said he did?
Crucifixions normally lasted days. According to the gospel, Jesus died after a few hours on the cross. Is it possible that they mistook him for being dead? This still happens in first world countries, so it is not too hard to assume that the same type of mistake was made during his time.
Jesus was scourged with whips tipped with metal (known as scorpions). The Case for Christ explains from a medical perspective why this would have significantly changed the length of time he was on the cross. IIRC it was related to hypovolemic shock.
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08-25-2010 , 02:38 PM
Yes Jebus rose from the dead. And after that he walked on water, see below.

http://www.welcometointernet.org/Jesus%20Cat.swf
So did Jesus rise from the dead? Quote
08-25-2010 , 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
Jesus was scourged with whips tipped with metal (known as scorpions). The Case for Christ explains from a medical perspective why this would have significantly changed the length of time he was on the cross. IIRC it was related to hypovolemic shock.
From a medical perspective no one rises from the dead, so you'd be better off restricting your explanations to the supernatural.
So did Jesus rise from the dead? Quote
08-26-2010 , 05:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Oshenz11
Which historically reliable documents confirm this?
Still waiting for this.

By the way, this is a subset of a much more general problem for Christianity-- it's early years were a mess of different teachings and traditions. Things weren't really settled until some ecumenical councils three centuries out, and the people who settled them were church leaders (IOW politicians), not historians and certainly not anyone who knew Jesus.

So not only do you have to have faith in the accounts of the people who wrote the gospels (whoever they really were) but you have to have faith that the roman catholic church officials who picked and chose from among the various tales did so correctly despite not having any training in history.
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08-26-2010 , 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Hainesy_2KT
i was a born and raised thoroughbred atheist from day 0 to year 20. only once my spiritual eyes were opened outside of the confines of the brain-washing cults that many claim as their highly suspect yet apparently unbiased experience of spirituality did I start to understand what the human spirit actually is, and how it relates to personal spirituality on the one hand, world religions on the other, and a whole host of other issues on the other.

but you wouldn't understand, that's just the way it is etc.
How did you go from this "inner spiritual process" "I get it" to believing Jesus as your lord and savior? It could've been Allah that started that process in you. Or did you see or hear Jesus during that meditation?
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08-26-2010 , 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by lawdude
Still waiting for this.

By the way, this is a subset of a much more general problem for Christianity-- it's early years were a mess of different teachings and traditions. Things weren't really settled until some ecumenical councils three centuries out, and the people who settled them were church leaders (IOW politicians), not historians and certainly not anyone who knew Jesus.

So not only do you have to have faith in the accounts of the people who wrote the gospels (whoever they really were) but you have to have faith that the roman catholic church officials who picked and chose from among the various tales did so correctly despite not having any training in history.
very true
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08-26-2010 , 04:25 PM
Quoting a large section from Why I am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell

Quote:
he [Jesus] certainly thought that His second coming would occur in clouds of glory before the death of all the people who were living at that time. There are a great many texts that prove that. He says, for instance, “Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel till the Son of Man be come.” Then he says, “There are some standing here which shall not taste death till the Son of Man comes into His kingdom”; and there are a lot of places where it is quite clear that He believed that His second coming would happen during the lifetime of many then living. That was the belief of His earlier followers, and it was the basis of a good deal of His moral teaching. When He said, “Take no thought for the morrow,” and things of that sort, it was very largely because He thought that the second coming was going to be very soon, and that all ordinary mundane affairs did not count. I have, as a matter of fact, known some Christians who did believe that the second coming was imminent. I knew a person who frightened his congregation terribly by telling them that the second coming was very imminent indeed, but they were much consoled when they found that he was planting trees in his garden. The early Christians did really believe it, and they did abstain from such things as planting trees in their gardens, because they did accept from Christ the belief that the second coming was imminent. In that respect, clearly He was not so wise as some other people have been, and He was certainly not superlatively wise.
No hand waving and obfuscation will ever take the OT beyond fairy tales shepherds told each other on starry nights and the NT beyond second and third hand accounts by unknown parties. Then there's the vested interest the early church had in making Jesus' gospels as glorious as possible.

Not a great recipe for an allegedly historical account.
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08-26-2010 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethos
Quoting a large section from Why I am Not a Christian by Bertrand Russell



No hand waving and obfuscation will ever take the OT beyond fairy tales shepherds told each other on starry nights and the NT beyond second and third hand accounts by unknown parties. Then there's the vested interest the early church had in making Jesus' gospels as glorious as possible.

Not a great recipe for an allegedly historical account.
Bertrand Russell is obv weak on understanding prophecy.
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