I think you are underestimating the importance of obedience to God in traditional Christian theology. This always trumps our own desires or moral views.

The reason I brought up Calvinism was because, as wizard-50 noted, they have a specific doctrine that says that the desires of humans without god are wicked and that without God they are unable to do good.

You seem to be comparing a different thing than me. We are talking about what is more effective at preventing people from murder. I'm assuming that the person involved has some kind of motive or desire to murder . One thing that prevents them from actually doing so is a concern about the consequences, e.g. prison, etc. Another thing that prevents them is the idea that "murder is immoral and I should not do immoral things." That is what I'm comparing. You seem to be comparing, "people who want to murder, but don't because of the police," and "people who don't want to murder." I'm not so interested in that comparison as there is no practical way that I know of to prevent people from wanting to murder.

Sorry, no need to post with me then.

You're just trying to control the conversation with your "logic".

Logic is simply a means of expression. It's a tool.

Men were never made to be controlled by logic. They were meant to be controlled by God's Spirit.

Since God's Spirit sets my mind free to dwell on heavenly things it's hard for me to return to earthbound (bondage thinking) standards. Luckily for me I had no formal training in logic so escaping earthbound standards is more and more possible for me.

I had the same type of problem but I don't really give a damn about anybody's opinion. If this is what you believe then so be it. They shouldn't force you to do or be something that you are not. I explained my religious beliefs to my whole family and they just had to accept it.

Are you a theist or atheist?

been agnostic for like 5 years now but been having my days where I just don't believe in a damn thing anymore. So kinda lost atm to be honest.

I thought you were going to say that. Don't get too entangled in here though.

Jesus Christ came to set everyone free.

All these atheists are doing is trying to bind everyone's minds back up so they can't be free to be all God is calling them to be.

Most of the theists are so busy defending their own thinking that they've forgotten that Jesus Christ came to set everyone free from evil thinking. Logic is nothing without morals..i.e. the Spirit.

You don't say!

If the human mind wasn't susceptible to bondage thinking then how do you think theists fell under the sway of hell doctrine?

Grace is what enables us to be set free. We find our rest from our labors (that includes our mental labors) in Jesus and in prayer.

Aren't the people who aren't going to be set free in this world the same people who are susceptible to bondage thinking?

Do you think God is going to let the whole human race be done in by evil thinking that they sometimes don't even grasp and oftentimes don't have control of? Aren't a lot of people compulsive. Barry Greenstein wrote that almost all poker players are compulsive....which means they are compelled to gamble or play poker. They don't have total control of it.

Another thing you might want to notice Hopey is that Jesus Christ was utterly free of bondage thinking in Heaven.

He came to Earth and made Himself a servant to set people free from bondage which includes bondage thinking.

Isn't moral relativism a type of bondage thinking? Don't we rationalize our selfish impulses using moral relativism?

I really feel like you have set up a false dilemma here.
If all I want is a shard of glass, I take a glass and drop it from a height, and pick up a shard.
Am I controlling the exact manner in which the glass pieces scatter themselves?

You keep asserting that God has to control every mutation, but I've not seen you demonstrate how this assertion is valid.

no bondage in heaven? I'll pass

Your choice. Just don't think it doesn't have any consequences.

Sin always comes with consequences.

Right, and someone who does desire to murder people will have more to repent for then you. That desire to murder and need for repentance for that sin will mean Gods judgement will require more form them then you.

More non answers.
And i think you are dismissing desire to sin as sin (or moving it to everyone).

If someone has more desire to sin they will have more to repent for and thous be judged differently.
Thats fine. I was raised Catholic though and i was taught desire to sin is a sin that needs to be judged.

If i lust and someone else doesn't i will be judged differently and need to repent for that sin when they dont.

It looks like that way Calvinist have it is no one is judged individually according to ones own heart. But more jugged in a cookie cutter way which will punish me for sins of desire i have not even desired. They make the Catholics look good....
Its not my comparison. Its doggs atheist who pillages and kills because nothing matters and non one is watching which started this whole discussion.

Leaving Calvinism aside. I still think the majority of Christians would agree with me. I think most Christians would say someone who desires to murder will have more to account for then someone who doesn't. They will need to repent for that sin where someone who doesn't desire to murder will not.

To me, is it more likely that this assertion is true?

"The souls must reenter the absolute substance whence they have emerged. But to accomplish this, they must develop all the perfections, the germ of which is planted in them; and if they have not fulfilled this condition during one life, they must commence another, a third, and so forth, until they have acquired the condition which fits them for reunion with God."
- Zohar, one of the principal Cabalistic texts

Or is it more likely that Yeshua, the predicted Messiah, who fulfilled a score of prophetic scriptures, and whose historical resurrection has claimed the title of "the center of history"-- is the son of God?

The man whose philosophy can be summed up by these words?

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41 If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42 Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you.
Love for Enemies
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.

To me, it's a no-brainer.

Another thing I notice is the willingness of evolutionists and skeptics to embrace and accept "explanations" for problems that are in no way testable, but are accepted because they sound reasonable or meet a certain criterion of satisfaction that can be swallowed up into an already predetermined worldview.
For example, just because you propose a reasonable-sounding explanation for some phenomena does not mean that it is true.
I hear a lot of reasonable-enough explanations offered up by skeptics and evolutionists here daily, that I think may not necessarily be true.

In some respect, I think some skeptics are not skeptical enough.
There are undoubtedly those here who focus their skeptical lens on christianity and Christ, but never, ever turn it against their own beliefs, though I continue to urge them and challenge them to do so.
Those people have no right to call themselves skeptics.
They are partisans.

But what I am talking about is what God said to Job out of the whirlwind:

Job 38:2 'Who is this that darkens my counsel
with words without (perfect) knowledge?'

You and I don't have perfect knowledge.
We have incomplete knowledge, as much as we'd like to pretend otherwise.
We see through the glass, darkly, as the Apostle Paul suggested.
I think sometimes we lose grip on our true situation.
The true situation that we live in is within a universe whose origin distances itself from logic, causality and coherence.
We live in a universe wherein most of the matter within it is hidden from us.
Not some. But most of it!
I'm not sure what we can say with confidence about the universe when all visible matter (including ourselves) appears on the fringe of the totality.

I ask you to consider and meditate upon this ancient verse:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

And as to the problem of evil, there are many threads on this question.

You must remember, that according to the typical, traditional christian view, Satan is the ruler of this earthly realm, and God is represented by the body of Christ in the church, and this is a time of spiritual war.
The Bible also indicates that there is a sliding scale system in place for those born in extremely unfortunate circumstances.

back to the point,

sorry if this has been answered.

dogg and splendour, if one of your kids became an atheist, how would your react? would you want to know? would it be best that they not say anything? what would be the best way to break the news?

From whom little is given, little is required; from whom much is given, much is required.

I see it the exact opposite way that you do.

The one who does not desire to murder has much more to answer for.

I think I already answered this in the thread.

But it would be pretty sorry, honestly, if I raised an atheist, since I am into christian apologetics.

I don't think I'm dismissing it as a sin. What I'm doing is saying that I think it is sinful because it is something God has told us not to do. Maybe this is the distinction I should make. For Christians, the main thing is that you are supposed to love and obey god. We sin when we don't obey god. One of the things that god has commanded is that we don't desire harm on others (such as desiring to murder them). Thus, it would be sinful to want to murder another person. However, the crucial point is that this is sinful not because such desires harm others, but because God has told us not to have such desires.

I think the problem here is while it is true that while most Christians believe that God has said that he will punish sinful acts, this does not mean that we are supposed to be motivated to not sin in order to avoid this punishment. Rather, we are supposed to be motivated to not sin because we love God and want to obey his commandments (this is the idea behind Augustine's famous dictum, "Love God and do what you will.").

Now, when we get to atheists, the question is, how will God view their actions? Notice here that we have some other intention in play--atheists are not motivated to act morally by their love of God or desire to obey him, so in that sense even if they don't disobey God's commands to not murder others or even to not desire to murder others, their motivation for doing so is still sinful (as they are not motivated by a love of God and a desire to obey his commands).

Here I think we get the crucial contrast. Atheists don't believe in sin, so they point out that it would be unjust and immoral to punish them for sinning as they do. Christians who do believe in sin have no such confidence. God is not bound by morality in the same way that humans are, and it might very well be the case that God punishes unbelievers because of their sin rather than their immorality.

That's one way to reply to my post.

I was fully open and genuinely searching. I found nothing. There was no one trying to bind my mind. I was involved in church and small study groups, etc.

As has been demonstrated before, you are a moral relativist. I am not, however.

I am not trying to 'control' anything. I am honestly just trying to talk to you in plain simple english, where 1+1 = 2 and where cause-and-effect relationships have a logical order of antecedent and outcome.
Great. Now we're making up facts and changing semantics as we go along too. Do you need me to bring out the dictionary?
Once again. WHAT does this paragraph mean?

Here's the second part to the earlier article.

Origen and his successors--Part 2
http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/w...cfm?LogID=3049

There's quite a bit more online on this.

Well if i meet God ill make sure to apologize for not wanting to murder anyone.
Why its sinful to desire to murder is besides the point. Even if it is sinful to desire to murder someone because God says so and not doing as God says is a sin. Then a Christian who does have that desire will need to repent for that sin. Where a Christian who doesn't wont have to repent for going against Gods command not to desire to murder.


This is why i moved the question to two Christians.


But i can see this is going nowhere, so meh...

I will give you guys this. I didn't think i could look at the God of Christainty worse then i already do. But i was wrong.

What exactly is the bondage thinking that we atheists have? The ability to think logically? Do we have to stop thinking critically to be able to believe in god? How do we break these bonds?