LOL - Nice deflection. I made no claims about the "default" state of a child's system of belief. I'm well aware of the fact that culture influences belief systems. But none of this supports the claim that there is a "default" state and that the "default" state is empty.

If you're saying the default state isn't no Gods then you're making claim the default state is Gods.

If there's one culture without Gods it should give you all the sources you need. Unless you think when a kid grows up in those cultures they have to be weaned off of the idea of God by their parents.

I'm not saying anything either way. You're the one making claims. And you're welcome to believe whatever you want to believe about the state of a child's "belief" system at birth. I don't even know why you think it's relevant.

This doesn't qualify as evidence or an argument of anything! I don't know why you keep wanting to go this route when it's logically incoherent. Children begin to learn long before they have the ability to express beliefs. So it's not possible to determine the "default" state by considering the state of the child's beliefs at the time they begin to express them.

Numbers for your so called "facts" please.

Also the conclusion that raising a kid "as an atheist" means teaching nothing at all is incorrect.

If you want to hold the belief the claim is false, I won't bother arguing with you about it.

Then tell me what raising a kid "as an atheist" actually means without violating the "atheism makes zero claims" position.

Well, you used the word "many". How many? 1? 2? 10? A million? All of them? I don't hold any beliefs regarding your statement - you made it - and I'm simply asking you what numbers are attached to that statement.

Atheism - in the broadest sense, is the absence of belief in the existence of deities (wiki). Raising a kid as an atheist means not putting any preconceived beliefs about existence of any deities into their heads.

This isn't really that hard to understand.

You said atheism is teaching your kids noting at all.

If teaching a kid nothing at all results in atheism. I dont know how you cant agree with me.

lol, nice catch batair

I have no numbers. I know quite a few in my own life experiences (easily in the low hundreds) who I believe are independent thinkers, and I know only a small percent of the people in the world. Even if nobody else in the world were a theist who had who were independent thinkers, I would still say that there are many.

So if a parent "put not preconceived beliefs about the existence of deities into [their childrens'] heads" and the child ended up believing in a deity (still as a child), would the parent have successfully raised the child "as an atheist"?

It's entirely possible that we're considering two completely different standards here.

Sorry, the logic does not follow. I don't believe that atheism necessarily follows from "raising a kid as an atheist" any more than theism necessarily follows from raising a kid as a theist.

I'm still trying to sort out with Eddi what he means by the phrase, which is something that I should have spent more time doing earlier (as much as he seems to hate doing it -- it's semantics, after all).

I'm afraid your statement is quite worthless without numbers and loses much of its power. If you simply wanted to point out existence of such people - I have no quibble with that. Anything more than that and you'll have to come up with numbers for me to care.

Yes, I think so. Atheism is not about brainwashing, but about not brainwashing. (going for the cool sentence structure obv)

That's okay. You don't have to care.

I find this to be an interesting position. If a parent claims to be a theist, but does not "impose" theism on their children (holding off the careful definitions for a moment), would that be raising a child as an atheist as well?

Sorry but i dont think your logic works well either. If teaching a kid nothing results in atheism. It would appear you need to teach them something to break the default setting and instill a belief.

Either which way this isn't going to go anywhere.

I find that scenario quite hard to imagine, but if it were possible (with appropriate clarifications), then yes.

I don't claim that teaching a kid nothing results in atheism. That's something you've claimed and that I don't agree with. I never made any claims about the RESULTS of raising a kid one way or the other.

"Therefore, atheism is an intellectual void. Raising a kid "as an atheist" therefore means teaching the kid nothing at all."

Alright whatever.

Are you really that dense?

Me:

Eddi:

Me:

There is NOTHING about RESULTS here.

Yes im apparently dense, ty sir.

of all the atheists i know, none of them had parents had parents that raised them as atheist by telling them god doesnt exist. not to say it doesnt happen, just that the huge majority falls into that category.

religion is more or less forced upon children who are incapable of thinking for themselves.

I find this scenario hard to image as well. Children learn much more than parents ever intend to teach them (yet they also fail to learn the things that parents *DO* try to teach them... go figure).

But I also find it hard to imagine a scenario in which atheist parents manage to avoid "imposing" any positions regarding deities at all. While atheism is the position of no position, atheists do hold positions about specific potential manifestations of God. For example, there are atheists who hold that Jesus was not God incarnate. This is a position that is not atheism since it is an actual position. Can an atheist parent avoid "imposing" the belief that Jesus was not God? Can an atheist parent avoid imposing the belief that Zeus is not real when the child does the lesson on Greek gods?

So unless we can come to some sort of understanding to where atheists can teach their children that they have no position regarding Zeus AND Christians can teach their children that they have no position on Jesus, I don't think it's possible to raise a child "as an atheist" without teaching the child nothing at all. I simply cannot envision teaching a child about all sorts of things while managing a blank "non-position" with respect to deities.

the church (of scientology) itself in many ways isn't analogous to other modern religions. they do a lot of things that shouldnt be tolerated as an organization.

but the premise behind why it's practice should be tolerated is nearly identical.

it just isnt child abuse, because it doesnt necessarily get in the way of them living a perfectly happy life despite their insane perspective of reality.


as for atheism being natural, i would say not.
i think the only natural position is one of uncertainty.

really cool interview with jason beghe about being in scientology and leaving it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHb0BZyF5Ok

more on topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXD_CljKMMw ---> talks about children raised as scientologists

i dont think children should be taught to be anything, not atheist, not christian, not muslim. nothing! teach the child rationality and logic and allow them to make up their own minds.

Do you have kids or have worked with kids?

How is it immoral to raise your children with deviant views?