This is a really neat flash.

You are insignificant


Yea....this all probably just happened by some random event.

your ignorance knows no bounds, that is all that needs to be said.

Yes interesting flash. But what is your point? Are you saying the big bang did not happen? Are you stating creationism is true?

I don't understand what you want to discuss with this thread.

I wanted to see where the attacks were going to come from first.

Right now.... it's just a really neat flash that kind of puts things in perspective...for me at least.

Let's take this angle.... "Why does God allow bad things to happen to me?"

Take a look at this and get an idea how insignificant you are in the grand scheme of all things.... all things that we know about at least.

Off topic... I don't really have a stance on the big bang. My theory has always been that even if the big bang explains the universe as we know it...even if evolution explains (scientifically) how life formed on this planet.... it all started from something. Even if that something is "energy" alone.... something started that.
In my world...that "something" is God.

I apologize for attacking so soon, but a strong christian as you brings up universe and makes a statement about and all this is random chance, reminds me of creationists statements.

Religion as a whole does not bother me, but when people use it to deny fundamental knowledge of science such as evolution and cosmology, then I get upset. I firmly believe those people are destroying the education of children, and thus our future ability to compete globally.

Are you wanting to discuss the Problem of Evil or the Problem of Suffering?

From my understanding, Problem of evil is basically 'why does god allow bad people to do bad things' and Problem of suffering is basically 'why does god allow disease, natural disasters, and so forth'

Then you must actually like me. I don't use religion to deny fundamental knowledge of anything.

Let's go with choice A: Why does God allow bad people to do bad things?

I know you wont like my answer...or actually it's only my opinion. Everyone hates those 2 words..."Free Will" and I don't really understand why. Especially if you look closely at this flash first.

Actually, I hate all scottish people, and people from LA. San Diego > LA.

I haven't finished playing poker this evening, and this will require a bottle of Savignon Blanc for me to outline my issues with the problem of evil.

I'll do it later.

this a pretty neat flash, don't know what theological implications are being drawn from it though

JD you'd probably like this youtube it's my current favorite about the universe

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANtpsunRYIs

Sand Diego is what?

You hate all Scottish people? You must love mexicans then if you think San Diego is greater than LA.

I'm sipping on some great single malt Macallan scotch right now....get yer racist arse in here boy! Me kilt is strapped on tight, ya mick!

Macallan is good, finished off a bottle a while back. I am working on a bottle of Bowmore right now. Though my favorite so far is Laphroaig.

Hey thanks for that link...it's actually good but I still don't get why atheist don't see that this is the same thing:

"It's possible that we can't understand everything"
and
"Saying science can't explain everything is just a way to avoid the question.That's why you people say 'God did it'".

He goes on to mock creationist who say "You can not get something from nothing"...then he says that is contradicting the first law of thermal dynamics. What about the law of conservation of mass?
He says that nothing the creationist says gives him any reason to believe him but he himself does not follow the basic laws of physics that exist.
His basic stance is that "You can't convince me that your theory is right...ergo it is wrong. Even though I can't provide a theory that holds any scientific validity to prove you wrong."
He seriously reminds me of a guy that I went to college with. VERY knowledgeable guy.
When he keeps using the term magic... I would replace that word with "God".
I know it's not a popular thought here but IMO ... to give way to the idea of God is to understand that "magic", for lack of a better word, is very possible.

Great stuff though. Thanks!

If you want to talk about scotch ... go to the drinking forum.










JK ! I'm getting Laphroaig next week. Just finished off a bottle of Bunnahabhain last week. Highland Park 12 may be one of my faves.

And this makes you think that god designed the universe with us in mind?

That he listens, cares, and tends to the petty prayers that come from a remote, distant, imperceptably microscopic speck in the universe?

Cool link tho. Thanks!

Yea...that's EXACTLY what I said.

Ohh...I'm sorry...can you link me to the part where I said that? I want to share it with my friends.
And what does imperceptably mean?


Hey Melch... can I borrow you "Reading Comprehension" pic?

Here, I believe that both JD and I have agreed upon discussing the concept of 'Evil' as what is done willingly by other human beings. I also believe we are discussing a God that is omnibelevolent. If it is no, then there is no point in discussing this.


Here are 3 issues.

1. Murdering someone removes the victims free will.

2. According to serveral stories, we can see that God removes free will from specific people. He 'hardened the heart' of the pharoh. One can find this in the old testament, and especially the punishments for certain 'sins' Such as the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

3. Supposing a Hell exists. Then real free will does not exist. This is the same free will that you may purgur in a court. Its a free choice to lie under oath. However, if you are caught, then you will be punished.

So, free will cannot be an answer to this problem.


Btw, I don't own any of those pictures.

Sorry. You said, 'in my world, that something is god'. So you didn't mean a personal god? I honestly don't know. I've only read a few sentences of your all posts and thought they were inane. So I assumed you were a theist. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

Obviously, I meant imperceptablE. I don't have spell check on. Is this what you do for fun? Read internet forums to nit on typos?

So I moved the slider very slowly all the way from left to right. At no point did I see God. Case closed.

1. Murdering someone removes the victims free will.
God never promised you "protection from free will". We are all in this "free will prison".

2. He 'hardened the heart' of the pharoh. Why did God harden the heart of the Pharoh? He never promised free will was a "free pass" for everyone. The Pharoh was 'free" to change his mind just as Saul was free to change his mind... the way he did on the road to Damascus. As for the punishments in Sodom and Gomorrah.. God had already displayed that your "free will" can come with punishment.
To take this even further and TOTALLY release the hounds on me... I will elaborate later on my views on this when it comes to disease and destruction.

3. Its a free choice to lie under oath. However, if you are caught, then you will be punished. I'm going to give you a pass on this one and allow you to rescind it. Again...God never said free will didn't come without repercussions.
I hope you aren't saying that because we have free speech that we should be able to yell FIRE in a crowded theater.

I'm going to bed... you should too because #3 sux.

Although that was almost funny.... if you had really looked at it... and read it.. it makes a good case for God.

Don't be a hater.

Then why couldn't god have provided assistance. It was several peoples will to kill Hitler, yet due to sheer chance he survived assassination attempts. Couldn't god have gone, 'hey move that bomb a few inches to the left'?

Again if there is no promise of free will, then how can free will be the answer to the problem of evil?

my third point does not suck. If something is egregious, that you will be punished with torture for eternity for committing the act, then it makes no sense for him to not stop it. Consider any other crime such as murder. If a cop is able to prevent you from committing the act, even if you lose your life in his defense of another person, then he is justified to stop you. In the previous two points you said free will isn't guaranteed. The point I am trying to make with #3 is that with such a punishment, we really don't have free will, just as we don't have the freedom to lie under oath.

seems like god's intervention on free will is oddly random... almost as if he wasn't there at all, 'cept the times something remarkable or unexplainable happens and its a good thing

If we're insignificant (and we are) isn't that evidence AGAINST a special magic man in the sky using his magical powers to create us as his children, and that the rest of the contents of the cosmos don't have such a purpose?

Yea....the entire 200 billion galaxy universe was made by a magical man in the sky for the sole purpose of testing the character of his monkey children (which, by definition he should already know) in one of the galaxies, the rest he just made for fun, makes sense.

Indeed, even if there were a creator, it would be very surprising if it even knew that human beings exist.

Look at the flash again and then maybe you'll realize that he did move that bomb, so to speak. So it took a bit longer to get rid of Hitler.... remember how old the universe is and how long eternity is. Hitlers entire life was a hiccup to God.

"Again if there is no promise of free will, then how can free will be the answer to the problem of evil?" I don't understand this statement. There IS a promise of free will and that free will is exactly the answer for evil.


Your third point also seems very clear to me. You DO have free will to lie under oath.... otherwise it wouldn't be possible for you to lie under oath. You will be punished if you exercise free will in that case though. Free will isn't carte blanche to just run around doing anything you want to without consequences. You can't yell FIRE in a crowded movie theater.... you can't exercise free will and shoot a guy at 7-11.... well, actually you CAN do these things because you have free will BUT you will face consequences.
God told Adam and Eve...eat from any tree in this garden but THAT one. He could made them without free will (robots) but that's not what he wanted.

I don't look at it that way at all. To me... it's a bigger case for God.
See...we like to think we are soooooo important (humans on Earth)...we want to believe that this God is sitting above our clouds playing chess with us.
I don't believe that at all. For all we know....there's another BILLION places just like this one. Maybe on that planet, the humans don't have free will but they have wings. There's another one where they look like those blue people in Avatar.
My point it that I don't believe this God in only watching planet Earth and I don't believe that the rest of the galaxies were made just for fun. What I do believe is that we should stop believing that we are so significant and that we deserve anything.