The fist vid stands alone and is what 3 minutes and the series gives you what you wanted in about the first 40 seconds.

Go away. I have no time for you.
I prefer to speak to those with minds that work.

Regards
DL

No, you're just wrong on this. You don't know what free will means or the implications of it. Why don't you go ahead and define it so we can see where you are going wrong. I'm sorry, but definitions of some words aren't up for debate -- that's just how language works.

Where do you find all this arrogance? Are you actually interested in learning and helping others learn, or do you just want to feel better than other people?

i always thought satan acted through human beings, not that satan is a human being, maybe someone can explain?

I keep getting told this B S yet no one writes anything that shows where.

Chastisement without correction is just cruelty.

Regards
DL

What exactly is meant by the terms "good" and "evil"? They are simply relative terms which depend on the point of view of the observer.

IME, "good" is simply the tenets, beliefs, morals, ethics etc of our team, while "evil" is the same of the other team.

For instance, had Nazi Germany won WW2 and the world was under Nazi dictatorship, Nazism would be "good", and being Jewish/gay/black/communist/all of the above would be "evil".

So, in his own eyes, any theoretical "Satan", as the term is widely interpreted, would see himself as "good".

In moral terms, the terms Good & Evil are only useful on a graph & are Inseparable.

I see that many just look at these terms as opposites.
Black white.
Hot cold.
Whatever.

It does not matter because, in moral terms, good and evil must be on a graph to be of any use to any discussion of moral issues.

That is why the ancients wrote them into the Bible as the tree of good and evil.
It’s fruit symbolizes that good and evil cannot be separated.

As nouns, forget it. For morals, they do not stand well alone.

As adjectives, they are good.

It is what goes between these two adjectives that is at issue and how and where we place them on the graph.
Ideally, the good and evil line will have a top and a bottom because issues often times have both within their character.
Like God for instance.

Basically, if you are arguing good and evil in any other way than described here; you are IMHO, wasting your time.

If you look to God for our moral sense you are also wasting your time because it is to mankind to set the rules of our dominion.

Regards
DL

Well, you could at any point have just looked up the definition of free will and you would have seen how your views on it are just wrong. But since you're so lazy that you won't even make sure your own thoughts make any sense, I'll humor you.

Free will is the ability to make your own choices without external influence. You don't use your free will to live. You can use your free will to make choices that when acted upon, increase your chances of living, but you can't strictly or directly just will yourself to life. Just like the opposite, you can't simply will yourself dead (you can only will yourself to do things that will make you dead).

Free will is not about actually doing things, it's about making choices to do things. To the gravity example, you can make the choice to fly. You can't actually fly because gravity won't let you, but that doesn't mean you don't have free will. Seriously, did you think that gravity would disprove free will? Then there'd be no debate over whether it exists, and there is real debate.

So when you said:
You were talking nonsense. You don't use free will to decide to be alive, so killing you does not impinge upon your free will.

He saw God as a self-absorbed, conceited being with such an incredible thirst for praise that he created other beings for the express purpose of worship. Lucifer was repulsed by this self-centered attitude, and found himself incapable of worshiping such a stuck-up being. At this point, spending a miserable eternity feigning worship to this narcissistic deity was the worst horror imaginable. At the same time, he knew attempting to conquer an all-powerful entity was futile. He rebelled, hoping to bring reason to the other angels. But he also desperately hoped God would destroy him immediately and rid him of him of his suffering. Lucifer's painful experience of eternal forced worship in heaven was something so terrible that due to our finite lifespans, none of us can truly comprehend it. The thought of eternal death and riddance from the rotten, decrepit realm of heaven felt like true paradise to him at this point. But God, being inexplicably cruel, unjust, and non-empathetic, not only refused to recognize Lucifer as a sentient being worthy of freedom and respect, but also refused to rid him of his pointless and futile existence. At this point, Lucifer was thoroughly enraged and appalled, and swore to do as much damage to God's creation as possible, both out of hatred of God and hope that at some point he would finally be put out of his misery.

...
Someone should makes this a movie, mirite? It's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with for Lucifer rebelling against God. He has to have motives; just being purely and inexplicably evil is pretty cliche and boring.

Is the threat of eternal hell, if deviating from someone's rules, an external influence?

If not, what is it?

Free will God style.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=aUtSM2oVy_E

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=Nv9IvCpiHxA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotat...&v=H0wSjJAsrAk

If God gave a hoot about the free will that He supposedly gave us, He sure is an Indian giver all over the O T where He tramples all over man’s free will to live as He went about killing us at Sodom and using genocide on us in Noah‘s day.

=============

Is hell a moral construct?

To know if hell is a moral construct, just answer this simple question truthfully.

Is it good justice that a sinner can only sin for 120 years and then must suffer punishment and torture for 1200000000000000000000000+ years?

Regards
DL

Well done.
Good imagination leads to better understanding of most issues.

Regards
DL

My mind works. So you do not believe in the Bible, do you believe in God?

Greatest I am:

So what did you mean when you said, "As I thought. Thanks."?

From: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/13...66/index4.html

Thanks.

Actually, I would like to take this privilege right now to bring you to the awareness that you are not really anything special. This clear contradiction of you accepting a more anti God imagination over a for-God imagination just puts you in the category of those who have something against God. And this is personal for you. And what do we know about the ego? It will get you broke.

And for those who really want to work their mind, this is a perfect example of how "Good imagination leads to better understanding."

Ok Ok to be fair this was a little egotistical.

I can admit to mine can you admit to yours?

No, that is not what an external influence is when discussing free will. If the waiter makes a suggestion at the restaurant, are you saying that he's taking away your free will? Again, if it was, then it would be extremely obvious that free will doesn't exist, and clearly it's not obvious. This line of reasoning is truly ridiculous.

Seriously, just educate yourself on the topic before you continue to pretend to know what you're talking about. Go look up determinism and free will. Really, go. There are good articles all over the internet and you can actually learn stuff.

Didn't you already post this? It's not more accurate now than before. My above post explains what free will is and why you don't get what it is. That is my response.

I know it's easy to imagine

but it's easier to just do

see, if you can't do what you imagine

then what is imagination to you?

- Kid Cudi

It would be more like if the waiter said im going to shot you in the head if you dont accept my suggestion. The biblical God if believed in most defiantly influences choices with his threat of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quZ5rE8ujcA.

Exciting, but that's still not what free will is about.

How about when God hardens peoples hearts so they cant make choices freely. Or maybe when he sends evil spirits to possess people. Would those do it.

Its funny because when it suits theists (not you because ive never seen you do this) God just coming down to earth and making himself known will interfere with freewill. But somehow God inspiring books with hundreds of rules that influence choices doesn't.

Yes. I believe that if free will exists, then these would be examples of ways that God can take that free will away.

You admit freewill might not exist and that God might have taken it away?
Your no fun.

If it helps, I do believe that free will exists (just from reading definitions I think that I'm a compatibilist), I just phrased things a certain way itt to avoid that debate as I don't think it was relevant to the post I was arguing against. That is, my posts were accepting free will for the sake of argument so that one could argue against them only by the conclusions they drew and not by the assumption that they made that free will exists.

I hope that's clear as I could not figure out how to say that in a less confusing sentence structure.

I get what your saying.

This speaks to the purpose of the Bible and God.
I see the Bible as a tool created or written to have us seek God. Not To find God.
I see the Bible as the tree of knowledge. After all, even it says that we have no access to the tree of immortality but it does not say that we do not have access to the tree of knowledge because that is what it tries to be.
The O T is obviously and demonstrably showing itself as more of an Anti-Christ than the N T Christ that is showing itself as a complete opposite to the O T. That one is so goody goody that he becomes impossible to believe.
The O T has a God who shows absolutely no reverence fore human life and a tyrannical God who gives us a free will to only follow His rules or burn forever in hell. I see this freedom to chose not as that at all but a threat from a dictator God who will kill us at the drop of a hat. To the extreme of using genocide on us in the days of Noah. Animals and all. Definitely a God of hate. An Anti-Christ. Meanwhile, the N T shows a God of unconditional love who will not even stone a prostitute and tells us that if someone steals our coat, to also offer our shirt. Turn the other cheek and so on.
I think that we are to read the Bible, and the reason it was written as is, is to read it as the two sides of the tree of knowledge and eventually follow Eve, then Adam to be as God’s, knowing good and evil. The only requirement that the Bible shows to be as Gods. No miracle working or other such foolishness involved. Miracles are not real.
The demonstrable fact that it is a consolidation of many previous religions shows that it was intended to be the next best guess of the ancients as to direction of thinking in our seeking God. It is a thinking tool to seek God. It is not a picture of God and God is not to be found within it’s pages. The Bible even tells us that to find God we are to look --- out there.
Unfortunately, literalists and fundamentals, be they Christian or Muslim or whoever venerates the Word, have formed the belief that it is God’s actual words and now idol worship the map to God instead of walking through it to go find the real God.
You might say that the great deceiver has indeed deceived the whole world and turned the search for the ideal God, an evolving God, into one made of paper. Pure idol worship to my mind.
End time prophesy clearly shows that at the end of days, we will recognize this fact that these Word and Bibles are just a map and we will look to all the false Gods that arise and elect ourselves a new God and bring on the end of woes. It shows a violent transition to this new God but I hope that we are bright enough to get there without the conflict that the ancients though would have to occur before our great election of the new God.
If we are bright enough, we will let the Words and Bibles fight through us with words only and we will not take up the weapons of war that the ancients though would need to happen.
If we want the true God of this earth, it is to us to elect Him.
Our first God was a man and our last shall be as well.
Is the Bible the tree of knowledge? If it is then we do have a map of sorts. A best guess, to find God.

Regards
DL