Sam Harris' new site "The Reason Project" - Page 2 - Religion, God, and Theology

What is a "practical truth", and what distinguishes it from a "literal truth"? I think I understand the essence of what you're getting at, so I substituted a more appropriate (because "wishful thinking" actually means something) phrase.

You say you know there's a difference between usefulness and truth but you're trying oh so hard to equate them. If you deny this claim, then please refrain from using such a garbage phrase as "practical truth".

No when I used the word "practical" there was nothing wishful about it.

People get practical results from faith: inner peace, harmony, purpose to their life, tolerance, will to live, even social connections (not everybody's into the bar scene) etc.

I heard a story about how some little old 90 year old lady was housebound and had alienated all her family with her crabbiness.

A pastor went by to see her and while there noticed she had a beautiful ivy plants. He asked for some clippings took them back to the church and grew them. A few days later some people came by to see her from the church and asked her to show them how to grow the plants.

It turned the woman's life around. She showed up in church and thanked them for showing her she still had a purpose in life.

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05-18-2009 , 03:42 PM

#27

thirddan

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that has nothign to do with what harris is arguing against...he is not saying that religion is bad at fostering a sense of community or comfort...he is simply saying that you don't have to believe the claims that religion makes without evidence...and evidence that shows religion/church is useful does not mean that the claims that religion makes are true...

there is nothing in your post that cannot be provided by a completely secular group...

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05-18-2009 , 04:10 PM

#28

Splendour

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Originally Posted by thirddan

Ha ha...Sam Harris is not God.

Faith is God's method. I consider revelation a type of evidence. Maybe its the highest type. Its a direct illumination of the intellect. No tools required just your ears, your eyes and your brain. You simply evaluate the testimony for truthfulness.

Testimony is evidence.

And so far that evidence has not been tampered with because the text we received has been validated by the Dead Sea Scrolls. That's almost miraculous because out of all the ancient writings the NT has the most extant copies.

If you only think about how enduring and functional revelation is then you can almost see the hand of God at work in it.

I find it impertinent of Harris to keep implying we don't have evidence. Our faith has sustained over 2000 years. It started out crushed between 2 powerful governments that tried to stamp it out. Yet its alive and well today and everything seems to be going along per biblical schedule.

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05-18-2009 , 04:20 PM

#29

kurto

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Originally Posted by Splendour

Isn't practical truth the best usage even if it isn't literally true?

what is a practical truth vs literal truth? Is this something just made up or is this a known distinction? And if practical truth =/= literal truth, then isn't it a misnomer?

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05-18-2009 , 04:23 PM

#30

kurto

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I heard a story about how some little old 90 year old lady was housebound and had alienated all her family with her crabbiness.

A pastor went by to see her and while there noticed she had a beautiful ivy plants. He asked for some clippings took them back to the church and grew them. A few days later some people came by to see her from the church and asked her to show them how to grow the plants.

It turned the woman's life around. She showed up in church and thanked them for showing her she still had a purpose in life.

This has what to do with Sam Harris' "Reason Project"?

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05-18-2009 , 04:40 PM

#31

Steve00007

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The foundation draws on the talents of prominent and creative thinkers in a wide range of disciplines to encourage critical thinking and erode the influence of dogmatism, superstition, and bigotry in our world.

This is so ironic because I see a lot of dogmatism and bigotry that comes from Sam Harris. In his Letter to a Christian Nation he comes across as a person that's very angry at God, and I'm sure that's one reason why his fans like to cheer him on.

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05-18-2009 , 04:42 PM

#32

Autocratic

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Originally Posted by Steve00007

hyachachachacha @ "angry at God." Get over yourself, your belief is not inherently buried deep within everyone, waiting to be discovered.

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05-18-2009 , 04:49 PM

#33

Splendour

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Originally Posted by Autocratic

hyachachachacha @ "angry at God." Get over yourself, your belief is not inherently buried deep within everyone, waiting to be discovered.

The six measures of faith
A person does not get faith by himself. The LORD GOD decides how much faith a person will have, and deals it to each man accordingly.

His measure focuses on six areas to determine how much faith to give you after you are called forward by Him.

He examines you to determine your ability to...

1) Be a living sacrifice
2) Be holy
3) Be acceptable of God
4) Be non-conforming to this world
5) Be able to transform yourself by the renewing of your mind
6) Be able to prove what is the good, acceptable, perfect will of God

1 ¶ I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. 3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. (Romans 12:1-3 AV)

excerpt from:
http://beckerbiblestudies.blogspot.c...-faith_27.html

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05-18-2009 , 05:12 PM

#34

HIV

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words words words
words
words words words

words
words words

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05-18-2009 , 05:38 PM

#35

roblin

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Originally Posted by Splendour

please stop derailing threads.

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05-18-2009 , 05:44 PM

#36

Splendour

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Originally Posted by roblin

please stop derailing threads.

I was just supporting the post before mine.

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05-18-2009 , 05:51 PM

#37

kurto

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Originally Posted by Steve00007

that odd that would get that out of the book. Its also a puzzling statement that many theists accuse of atheists. One cannot be 'mad at God' if one does not believe in god.

What you may be mistaking as 'mad at god' is 'mad at man because of the influence of religion', which is a totally different thing.

No one can be cheering him on for being angry at God more then they could for being angry at "santa claus."

Though I am curious what specifically you mean by his "dogmatism and bigotry." Seeing that you incorrectly characterized him above, this might be interesting.

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05-18-2009 , 05:53 PM

#38

kurto

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Originally Posted by Splendour

I was just supporting the post before mine.

which had nothing to do with this thread.

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05-19-2009 , 06:55 AM

#39

CharcoalPet

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

Ha ha...Sam Harris is not God. Yay, we agree, this is off to a promising start.

Faith is God's method (Ok, so you don't need evidence.). I consider revelation (something that isn't evidence) a type of evidence (You see you can't do just make things up as you go.). Maybe its the highest type (Wait, stop. Back one step, it's not even evidence. See what your brain is doing. It's not even debating whether it's evidence, and putting the debate on whether or not it's the highest type, brainwashing you into missing the crucial step in this evaluation. We can fix this Splendour.). Its a direct illumination of the intellect (Hold up. See, this is where You just say things that aren't true.). No tools required just your ears, your eyes and your brain (Now you're stating things usually required for evidence as things that confirm something you believe in, despite not using those things. This is how you're brainwashed.). You simply evaluate the testimony for truthfulness (This statement about the simplicity of figuring out the truth, in the manner you were brainwashed, allows you to just reinforce what you think whether or not it's true. It's like saying the way I came to be brainwashed is how I know what I believe to be true. This is a statement is also about you stating that critical analysis need not apply, since it's simple process.).

Testimony is evidence (But it's not evidence. Remember how earlier you said "revelation is a type of evidence"? You're saying things that aren't evidence are evidence, because those are the things supporting your beliefs. This is how this belief survives. It changes the definitions and properties of words. It makes you immune to reasoning.).

And so far that evidence has not been tampered with because the text we received has been validated by the Dead Sea Scrolls (Here we could discuss what validation is there or I could argue the lack of archaelogical evidence of 40 days of world flood or no ark, and how you conveniently ignore it. None of this will go anywhere, since you've immunized yourself from logic by now.). That's almost miraculous ("almost miraculous" doesn't mean anything, it's like saying it's not miraculous. But these sort of statements are thrown around reinforce your immunity to logic.) because out of all the ancient writings the NT has the most extant copies.(So it's almost a miracle that something that survived has copies that survived? I'm not even criticizing, just trying to understand. Writings that survived are something you believe in, isn't miraculous. It's expected. It's also expected that writings that survived with the most copies have other copies.).

If you only think about how enduring and functional revelation is then you can almost see the hand of God at work in it (You say "almost see", which allows your belief to deflect all criticism. I'm throwing in a bit of reasoning.).

I find it impertinent of Harris to keep implying we don't have evidence (Now since your mind has changed things that aren't evidence to be things that are evidence, you can now reinforce it with more emotion by taking insult at something that really isn't insult. I would say, Sam Harris is saying you don't have evidence, since you don't have evidence. Remember you switched things that aren't evidence into evidence earlier?). Our faith has sustained over 2000 years (This is arbitrary, since it's an amount of time that the religion existed. It assumes the criteria is 2000 years. How about religions that survived less? Not quite 2000 some might say. But then what about religions that survived more than 2000. Then you can say, it's not about how long a religion has survived, and now can arbitrarily change the rules, so your belief can survive in your mind. By the way, there's many stories about supernatural people with the same powers as Jesus around that time period, who died, rose from the dead 3 days later, etc. It was a common story, but I digress.). It started out crushed between 2 powerful governments that tried to stamp it out (This doesn't validate it's truth. Every religion that exists survived something. Also, religion supported by government probably doesn't invalidate it in your mind.. Yet its alive and well today and everything seems to be going along per biblical schedule.(Saying "everything seems to be ..." allows more arbitrary self-confirmataion. If it it fits, then it's true, if not, then it's false. Biblical schedule isn't a schedule. It's made up to be a sort of confirmation by whatever people what it to be. This is another indicator of your immunity to logic.)

Step away from the darkness and into the light, Splendour.

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05-19-2009 , 08:15 AM

#40

Scansion

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Originally Posted by CharcoalPet

Step away from the darkness and into the light, Splendour.

A+. Of course it won't work, but it's awesome. I love these kinds of posts.

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05-19-2009 , 09:35 AM

#41

Splendour

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Originally Posted by CharcoalPet

Step away from the darkness and into the light, Splendour.

wiki on Legal Testimony:

In the law, testimony is a form of evidence that is obtained from a witness who makes a solemn statement or declaration of fact. Testimony may be oral or written, and it is usually made by oath or affirmation under penalty of perjury. Unless a witness is testifying as an expert witness, testimony in the form of opinions or inferences is generally limited to those opinions or inferences that are rationally based on the perceptions of the witness and are helpful to a clear understanding of the witness' testimony.

(The NT witnesses made their testimony under the most extreme persecution/peer pressures and penalty of death.)

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05-19-2009 , 11:06 AM

#42

kurto

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Originally Posted by Splendour

wiki on Legal Testimony:

(The NT witnesses made their testimony under the most extreme persecution/peer pressures and penalty of death.)

You realize this is meaningless, right? If I testify under the most extreme persecution and peer pressure (oooh peer pressure) and I believe something that is wrong, my testimony will be untrue.

The fact that they testified under penalty of death has absolute ZERO bearing on the truth.

This is patently obvious to everyone. Yet you've posted this repeatedly here on this forum. Why do you continue to post material that does NOT aid your cause?

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05-19-2009 , 11:46 AM

#43

Autocratic

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Originally Posted by kurto

It's better than all the material showing how unreliable witness testimony is.

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05-20-2009 , 09:07 AM

#44

remski

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wow, you guys are 'tolerant', trying to teach a person who is willfully contrarian.

You can only believe those things or you should be only able to believe those things if you think there are good reasons to believe those things."

Quote:

The emphasis here is on thinking which excludes any one of a lower intellectual capability or perhaps having a mental health issue.

You are reading way to much into it. I think you may even see it as a simple statement, yet still attach meaning to it that is tenuously connected at best.

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05-20-2009 , 09:46 AM

#45

Boolean

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To try to get this thread back on track, I've been looking at the site for the last couple of days, and just recently noticed the "Hall of Shame" section on their front page. Huh. I was expecting something far worse (condemning apostasy, calls of death to infidels, anything written by Charlotte Allen, real shameful stuff), but instead I was greeted with this.

Now, while I don't particularly agree with the article, I don't think it's shameful at all. In fact, I think it's very well written, and starts a very interesting dialog. Compare that to say, Charlotte Allen's article in the LA Times which only inspires rage.

I'm just saying, it gives the impression that The Reason Project exists because it thinks that all implementation of religion is shameful, and I don't necessarily agree with that. Sure, it's a nit-pick, but I'm not sure if I can support a site, while I feel that the direction of the site is moving away from reasonable criticism to "Shame on you for disagreeing with me."

Last edited by Boolean; 05-20-2009 at 10:07 AM.

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