Salvation on the Strip - Page 4 - Religion, God, and Theology

I don't want to be construed as adhering to this position re: porn, but there's a strong case to be made for considering something that leads directly to violence etc. immoral.

I was just pointing out that this isn't as clear cut a case as some earlier comparisons have suggested.

"Is modestly correlated with" means the same as "leads directly to" since when?

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07-04-2009 , 08:29 PM

#77

tame_deuces

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Originally Posted by madnak

"Is modestly correlated with" means the same as "leads directly to" since when?

The correlations are mostly just bogus. That would just be a hen or the egg question (do sexual aggressive people watch violent porn or does watching violent porn make you sexually aggressive), so its pointless.

The interesting bit are the controlled studies, but even they have a longtitude problem (immediate effects might not be identical to prolonged effect) and the experimental setting not being necessarily representative of the real world.

Fwiw; In the setting it is done in they hint more towards causation than mild correlation however (interestingly the kind of causation one has failed to find when it comes merely to non-pornographic violent movies in the same setting).

I'm not certain what it means. Maybe very little - or maybe the old advertising axiom that if you put sex with it, it sells.

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07-04-2009 , 10:01 PM

#78

All-In Flynn

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Isn't there a study correlating consumption of porn with a decline in rape? It might have only correlated internet uptake, and it was only a correlation, but still... Wouldn't speak to the 'violent porn' question, either, but in the real world it's hard to see many people seeking that out who weren't already somewhat predisposed.

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07-05-2009 , 01:00 AM

#79

Autocratic

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Originally Posted by madnak

"Is modestly correlated with" means the same as "leads directly to" since when?

I'm not claiming that these things are equal. I'm saying that a correlation indicates that causation is possible and these things should be considered.

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07-05-2009 , 01:11 AM

#80

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Originally Posted by All-In Flynn

The studies I've seen didn't include merely what we'd consider violent porn to be - it was any porn that showed women as enjoying what would generally be uncomfortable or painful.

Ugh I am coming off like I'm anti-porn when it's really my first love.

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07-05-2009 , 01:26 AM

#81

Chuck Biscuits

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Originally Posted by All-In Flynn

The best example is Japan in the 70s. They went from no porn for anyone, to porn with no age limit. The rate of rape decreased considerably.

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07-05-2009 , 02:26 AM

#82

Aaron W.

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Originally Posted by Chuck Biscuits

The best example is Japan in the 70s. They went from no porn for anyone, to porn with no age limit. The rate of rape decreased considerably.

It's worth linking the article if you're going to reference it. While correlation is established, the other influencing factors are worth explicit mention. (In particular, the emphasis on family structures playing a role -- see paragraphs 1, 2, and 5 in the excerpt)

Excerpt:

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What other societal factors, aside from an increase in pornography, might have led to the decrease in crimes in Japan? And if pornography doesn't lead to rape and sex crimes, what does? Obviously these are complicated multifaceted questions. In response, we agree with many (e.g., Brannigan. 1997; Fisher & Barak, 1991, Gottfredson & Hirschi, 1990) that crimes in general are not simply a matter of "monkey see - monkey do." As with most other crimes, sex crimes are usually opportunistic, given little forethought and typically committed by individuals with poor self or social control. And such individuals are often identifiable before they would be exposed to any substantial SEM. More than half of adult sex offenders were often known to be adolescent sex offenders (Abel, 1985; Knopp, 1984). As Gottfredson and Hirschi (1990) state: ". . . the origins of criminality of low self control are to be found in the first six or eight years of life, during which time the child remains under the control and supervision of the family or a familial institution . . . policies directed towards enhancement of the ability of familial institutions to socialize children are the only realistic long-term state policies with potential for substantial crime reduction (pp. 272-273).

The increasing competitive nature of the Japanese educational and employment situation over the last two decades has pressured more time being devoted to school achievement starting in preschool and continuing through college; hours of home-work and extra tutoring after school (juckyu) are common (Efrom, 1997). And Japanese mothers usually remain at home to supervise their children through the middle school if not the high school years. We believe this in itself reduces the opportunity for anti-social or criminal activity and helps socialize the child to avoid criminal behaviors as an adult.

Ellis (1989) attributes sex crimes to innate motives toward sexual expression and a drive to possess and control. The increased early age times under family jurisdiction can help modify these drives. So too, we think, can the standard Japanese K-12 sex education programs take some credit. Thus, socially positive proactive forces, in themselves, may account for much of the reduction in the crime seen. Other forces responsible for the modification of sex crimes rates in Japan or elsewhere have yet to be determined.

A companion question also arises: Might there be negative effects of the increase in pornography availability other than measured by our inspection of documented sex crimes? Feminists, religious conservatives and other moralists consider pornography a problem even if it can not be proven that it leads to an increase in sex crimes (see e.g., Court, 1984; Osanka & Lee, 1984). Some see it as violence against women per se, e.g., "The question is not: does pornography cause violence against women? Pornography is violence against women, violence which pervades and distorts every aspect of our culture (Dworkin, 1981, book cover)." And Steinham (1983) has written: "pornography is about power and sex-as-weapon - in the same way we have come to understand that rape is about violence, and not really about sexuality at all (pp. 38)." MacKinnen (1993) considers even written pornography degrading and harmful to women by its mere existence.

There are certainly anecdotal reports of negative consequences, aside from sex crimes, attributed to pornography. These range from domestic violence (e.g., Sommers & Check, 1987), to child abuse (e.g., Burgess & Hartman, 1987). There is, however, no evidence that pornography is in anyway causal in such terrible and regrettable crimes (Howitt & Cumberbatch, 1985). These anti-social and criminal acts, we believe, are more likely due to the poorly parented and inadequately schooled individuals with poor self or social control mentioned above.

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07-05-2009 , 03:55 AM

#83

tame_deuces

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Originally Posted by All-In Flynn

A lowering of rape rates is rarely a good sign, because rape is typically measured by crime stats. A lowering could mean less reporting or higher leniency towards rape (amongst the police/investigating body).

So due to this weird effect some of the leading countries in the world when it comes to taking care of rape victims has very high rates of reported rape.

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07-05-2009 , 05:31 AM

#84

All-In Flynn

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Originally Posted by tame_deuces

Yeah it's all pretty far from conclusive, though it appeals intuitively.

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07-05-2009 , 10:55 AM

#85

madnak

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Quote:

Originally Posted by tame_deuces

The interesting bit are the controlled studies, but even they have a longtitude problem (immediate effects might not be identical to prolonged effect) and the experimental setting not being necessarily representative of the real world.

Fwiw; In the setting it is done in they hint more towards causation than mild correlation however (interestingly the kind of causation one has failed to find when it comes merely to non-pornographic violent movies in the same setting).

Well, in those cases some level of causation has been established, but nothing like direct causation. And it's unclear exactly what was caused by what (how do we translate "violent porn" and "aggressive behavior" outside of the experimental context). And we can't extrapolate anything just because a normal person looking at violent porn shows a short-term increase in aggressive tendencies.

I would like to see them play rugby or American football for an hour, and see how that affects their behavior toward women. Or take someone with a particular interest in violent porn, or a callous sex offender, and see whether the same trend exists in those populations.

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