there are protestants who subscribe to by faith alone (sola fide) are you saved, but I would reject that.

God does not punish those who don't have the ability to make coherent choices or free will. Ex: a toddler or someone who is mentally handicap.

From the Catechism:

1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God's law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart133 do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin.

1860 Unintentional ignorance can diminish or even remove the imputability of a grave offense. But no one is deemed to be ignorant of the principles of the moral law, which are written in the conscience of every man. The promptings of feelings and passions can also diminish the voluntary and free character of the offense, as can external pressures or pathological disorders. Sin committed through malice, by deliberate choice of evil, is the gravest.

"God" doesn't punish anyone. The Creator is not our judge.

You make your own bed.

You totally missed what I said. As far as I understand it, if you dont say you believe in jesus, you will burn in fire for eternity. Nothing to do with sin, nothing to do with coherent choices or free will. That is, you can sin, but as long as you have accepted jesus by the time you die, then you are fine.


To be subjected to an eternity of torture for not believing something, is absolutely gross

Sorry If I missed what you said. What you mentioned sounds like the "salvation by faith alone" doctrine that some protestants have. You'll often hear them say they have been "saved" or are "saved".

As a Catholic, I don't really know if I'm "saved". All I can do is best orient myself towards God and hope He has mercy on me. I can believe in Jesus but if I die in a state of mortal sin I'm still damned. You may know this but that's why Catholics have confession so we are cleansed mortal sin. It's a different view of salvation than protestants who think they are saved for simply believing in Jesus.

I was just pointing out that a young child (with no capacity to understand God) being thrown into the fire is cruel and isn't the same as an adult who has free will and mental capacity to understand God and freely chooses to go against him.

Oh yeah. That makes much more sense.

it depends what you mean by "freely chooses to go against him". Why does "choosing to go against him" warrant eternal punishment?


What if I cant "freely choose to believe"? I am still going to end up in eternal torture


Does the catholic church not say that everyone has sinned, that everyone is damned?

To sin and that person who rejects Jesus before death is making a permanent choice.


No you wouldn't.


Everyone besides Mary is born in Original Sin after the fall. Everyone has sinned except her as well because of our fallen natures.

From a Catholic perspective, Baptism cleanses us from Original Sin and welcomes us into Gods grace. We can cleanse ourselves from our sins that we commit through confession.

We want to die a holy death and in a state of grace (no confessed mortal sins).

So, what did Jesus do again?

Ok what if I dont believe in all that? Dont believe in a god, dont believe that baptism cleanses us and welcomes us into gods grace?

Am I going to be eternally tortured?

These guys are so lost in the dogma and doctrine of religion that they can never stop and assess: "Oh, there are thousands of these religions/belief systems, Oh they are arrived at mythologically, Oh they are an insult to reality, Oh is it just that I am terrified to analyze the unreality of things like being a vampire for some savior (magic blood drinking), Oh a god who is love/love keeps no record of wrongs/my god killed millions for doing wrong ..."

IS IMPOSSIBLE. IS APOCRYPHAL and can be nothing else.

Only God knows but here is the teaching on Hell. We do believe that God can can convert us in the last moments of our lives.

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

So, what did Jesus do again?

right, so I do in fact go to hell ( which as far as I understand is eternal torture) just because I dont believe and therefore cannot repent or accept god. Its not a choice, I cant choose to believe. You think its fine for someone to be tortured eternally simply for not believing.

A works based doctrine called lordship salvation used by false teachers like ray comfort, paul washer, pentecoastals, catholics, jeavoah witness, mormons etc.

I've heard this all before.

I believe its easy to be a believer. Most won't however because they are too proud. They think they have to do good to get to heaven when in fact your works are like rags to God.

Used to know a guy who said he has to try and act holy around a pastor when he was living with him. both believed in all this repentance stuff turning from sin to be saved.

They are both sinners. Proud sinners thinking they are better than others. That pastor even told me one of my mates was to be avoided because there's nothing good in him. In fact he's the one you should be around rather than the false teachers who think they are good making them proud. And God hates the proud.

Some believers never grow/mature in their faith to earn rewards in heaven from their good works. Salvation isn't really fair. Its avaliable for everyone who relies solely on Christ for their salvation and not on their own works. Like I said works are for getting rewards in heaven not to get salvation.

You can believe in God and be a unbeliever. You can also believe that God died for your sins, was buried and rose on third day. That makes you believer. You need Jesus to save you.

The whole reason we need Jesus is because we owe a debt. Jesus will pay for that debt which we cannot pay for. We all deserve to go to hell but Jesus dieing for us and us relying on him for salvation keeps us out of hell.

doesnt answer my question. Am I going to burn in hell because I am unable to believe?

if you are saying the Catholic church as a whole teaches works based salvation that isn't the case.

But you have to do things to be saved, right? Baptism, Confession, etc.

For the 3rd time, what did Jesus do again?

We are saved through God's grace alone. We do have sacraments but it's the Holy Spirit that is working through them that is important. Think of the sacrament as an instrument but the Holy Spirit is the one that plays the instrument.

For some reason I feel this is a set up question since I would think you know the answer. Jesus restored the bridge to heaven and died for our sins so we can be forgiven of ours and be saved.

Of course it's a set up question.

You said, "Baptism cleanses us from Original Sin and welcomes us into Gods grace."

Then you said, "We can cleanse ourselves from our sins that we commit through confession."

You also said, "It's a different view of salvation than protestants who think they are saved for simply believing in Jesus."

According to what you say, I just need to be baptized and confess my sins to a priest, and I'm good, right?

So, again, I will ask, what did Jesus do?

On it's face a Protestant that has a view that by "faith alone" view of salvation and Catholic view are very different but they are closer than they appear. Isn't the act of believing in Jesus a work because it's something that must be done? Their believing in Jesus is their first good work is a response to God's grace (most protestants would agree with this).

Catholics hold that Faith in Jesus, Baptism, and dying in a state of grace are the key areas of salvation. But none of these things can possibly happen without God's grace.

Going through the motions without faith or sincere contrition would render the sacrament invalid, faith is a key part.

Ok, now you've added faith in Jesus, to Baptism, to Confession, and other sacraments.

So when, exactly, is one saved? Can one have salvation and lose it? If it is lost, can one get it back? How?

When baptized / Yes, when you commit a mortal sin / yes / confession or make a perfect act of contrition

That is so totally f*cked up, I don't know where to begin. Where is Jesus?

He ascended into Heaven but is also made physically present in the Eucharist during the holy sacrifice of the Mass.