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Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution

03-22-2012 , 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego

Thereby Dawkins defied logic by insisting that accidents--which, according to the dictionary definition, produce undesirable or unfortunate results--must have somehow done what he himself admits is "exceedingly improbable." (Source: The Selfish Gene, by Richard Dawkins, p. 16)
It defies logic that people cannot understand that things which are "exceedingly improbable" happen all the time.

It also defies logic that people cannot understand that if this exceedingly improbable event never happened, we wouldn't be having this discussion because we wouldn't exist.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
03-22-2012 , 07:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alter2Ego
ALTER2EGO -to- COMPLETE DEGEN:
I guess that means you have no answer for how this "single ancestor" showed up--in order for evolution to have supposedly taken place from the get-go. Richard Dawkins claimed it started off as slime in the sea, made it to land, and sprouted legs. But before I go there, let me give the dictionary definition of "accident."
I don't have such an answer and never claimed to. You obviously misunderstand what evolution seeks to explain. Evolution does not explain the origin of life, yet your criticizing evolution because it doesn't prove that life originated without god. Do you know what a straw man argument is?

I am an agnostic atheist. I don't claim to know how the universe or life originated (agnostic) and choose to live my life a-theistically (atheist) as I haven't experienced or observed anything that would allow me to conclude there is a personal god who takes an interest in my life.

Quote:
Jastrow added:

"Scientists have no proof that life was not the result of an act of creation."
Do you know what an appeal to ignorance logical fallacy is?

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Atheist Evolutionists rely upon the assumption that life resulted without a Creator.
As far as I'm concerned, the positive statement that there is no God is as irrational as the positive statement that there is a God.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-11-2014 , 12:24 PM
Funny how this thread wasn't bumped when news came out earlier this year that multiple scientists have admitted on camera to faking whale fossils. This is no surprise to those of us that believe that universal common descent is a bunch of hogwash.

Brief Summary: Two scientists supplied the top museums in the world (AMNH, Carnegie, Smithsonian, NHM London, National Museum of Nature and Science, Tokyo, Melbourne Museum, Canadian Museum of Nature, Paris Natural History Museum, Naturalis Museum, Netherlands, Museo Storia Naturale di Pisa and many more) with “fossils” of walking whales, but it has now been revealed in television interviews that these “fossils” were made up. In exclusive interviews with these two scientists, they admitted (on camera) they attached whale body parts (flukes, blowholes, or fins) to land animals and supplied these altered fossils and diagrams to museums.

St. Louis Missouri April 7, 2014. Whales with four legs, walking on land, are currently considered one of the best fossil proofs of evolution 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, (click on numbers to see footnotes) but now this evidence has collapsed according to science documentary maker Dr. Carl Werner. After interviewing the two scientists who reconstructed the fossils of the three famous walking whales, Rodhocetus, Pakicetus and Ambulocetus, Dr. Werner has concluded that scientists created false models of these skeletons and skulls and passed them off to museums. The made-up models are currently on display at the American Museum of Natural History in New York, the Carnegie Museum in Pittsburgh, the National Museum of Nature and Science in Tokyo, the Paris Natural History Museum, the Naturalis Museum in Leiden, Netherlands, the Museo Storia Naturale di Pisa, the Canadian Museum of Nature, and the Melbourne Museum in Australia. Also, the website of the Natural History Museum of London currently displays a false skull and model, painfully reminding British scientists that they have another Piltdown in their midst.

Dr. Werner documented that blowholes were added to skeletal models of the walking whales Pakicetus and Ambulocetus even though fossil evidence of the blowhole region had not been found; a whale’s tail (fluke) was added to the walking whale Rodhocetus except no tail fossils had been found; and front fins were added to the walking whales Rodhocetus and Pakicetus when fossils of fins did not exist. According to Dr. Werner, “The two scientists who found the lion’s share of walking whale fossils essentially created the best fossil proof of evolution using plaster models and drawings and supplied these to museums and science magazines. In each case, they started with incomplete fossils of a land mammal. Whenever a fossil part was missing, they substituted a whale body part (blowholes, fins and flukes) on the skeletal model or skull that they distributed to museums. When these same scientists later found fossils negating their original interpretations, they did not recall the plaster models or drawings. Now museums are full of skulls and skeletons of ‘walking whales’ that are simply false.” Dr. Werner went on to say, “I suspect some curators are not aware of the significance of these substitutions nor are they aware of the updated fossils. Museums should now remove all of the altered skeletons, skulls and drawings since the most important parts of these ‘walking whales’ are admittedly made up. Museums will also have to delete these images from their websites as they are misleading the public.”


First Walking Whale Falters 2001

Dr. Werner’s journey started with his 2001 interview with Dr. Phil Gingerich, Curator of the Museum of Paleontology at the University of Michigan. Dr. Gingerich is recognized as the world’s leading authority on whale evolution. In 1994, Dr. Gingerich reported finding Rodhocetus, a purported “walking whale.” It was a four-legged animal with a whale’s tail (called a fluke) and front whale flippers.

As recounted by Dr. Werner, “I went to the museum to see the actual fossils and film the interview. When I arrived, I noticed that the fossils of the most spectacular aspect of Rodhocetus were missing. There were no fossils of the arms and tail yet they had flippers and a whale’s tail on the diagram. When I pointed this out to Dr. Gingerich in the interview, he retracted his claim that Rodhocetus had flippers or a fluke. His admission in this interview was simply stunning. My confidence was shaken.”


Second Walking Whale Wobbles

Since only two closely linked scientists had found nearly all of the “fossil” evidence of walking whales, Dr. Werner began to wonder if the other walking whales were created in this same way. In 2013, he interviewed the second scientist, Dr. Hans Thewissen, (a former student of Dr. Gingerich), who found the walking whale called Ambulocetus. Dr. Werner said, “It was like Déjà vu. I walked in for the interview and saw the skeleton lying there on the table and I was again stunned. The most spectacular part of the fossil, a partially evolved blowhole, was missing on the fossil. It appeared that Thewissen had added whale parts (in this case a blowhole) to the areas where he had no fossil evidence, just as his former professor had done.” When Dr. Werner began questioning Dr. Thewissen about the shape of the skull and missing fossil parts, Thewissen retracted the entire blowhole idea even though he had supplied the world’s top museums with skeletons having blowholes.



Dr. Thewissen had reported seven other whale characters of Ambulocetus, but all of these, according to Dr. Werner, are problematic. “Dr. Thewissen said that the cheekbone of Ambulocetus was ‘reduced’ as in modern whales and dolphins; but, in fact, the cheekbone of Ambulocetus is larger than the cheekbone of a horse. If Ambulocetus is a whale based on its cheekbones, then Mr. Ed is a whale too. It is surprising that the editors of Science did not pick up on all this when he submitted his article.”


Finally, according to Dr. Werner, Dr. Thewissen also retracted his statement that Ambulocetus had a key feature, a whale-like ear bone called a sigmoid process. For scientists, this important part cinched the idea that Ambulocetus was a whale in the first place. Dr. Werner: “The ear bone of Ambulocetus looks nothing like a whale ear bone. What he called a sigmoid process does not look like a whale sigmoid process. Surprisingly, in our interview, Dr. Thewissen changed his position and suggested that the ear bone of Ambulocetus looked more like a mole rat ear bone. You see, all eight characters he reported as whale features are disturbingly non-whale characters.”

Third Walking Whale Overturned

In the 1980s, Dr. Gingerich found a few scraps of a skull and imagined that the animal called Pakicetus was a missing link, an animal halfway evolved between land animals and whales.

He then created a walking-whale skull with a blowhole from these few fragments found and supplied this full skull to the American Museum of Natural History in New York, The Natural History Museum in London and to the television producers of the 2009 National Geographic special When Whales Had Legs. He also supplied artistic drawings of this animal with flippers and whale ears and neck. According to Dr. Werner, “The fossil casts of the skull and the drawings of Pakicetus had substitutions of a blowhole, flippers, and whale ears on the skull models and paintings currently used by museums.” These institutions did not make clear to the public what parts of the skull (American Museum of Natural History and the London Museum) or full body paintings (Natural History Museum London) were made up. Later, in a turn of events of which few museum curators seem to be aware, a full skeleton of this animal was later found in 2001. Contrary to what Dr. Gingerich had imagined, there was no blowhole on the nearly complete skull (only a nose like an ordinary land mammal); there were no flippers (only hooves); and there was no whale neck (just a long skinny neck typical for land mammals). Even so, the American Museum of Natural History in New York and the Natural History Museum in London have not stopped using the false skull with a blowhole.

http://thegrandexperiment.com/whale-evolution.html

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7e6C6yUqck

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkwhd_gIR7c#t=11

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GxcZCJ_WgXo

So funny, you talk to worshipers at the alter of Darwinism, and ask where the best transitional fossil evidence is for evolution, and many say whale evolution - that they have it all figured out. Oh really?

2013 Melbourne Museum: Whales evolved from a deer-like creature
2013 American Museum Natural History Manhattan: Whales evolved from lion-like creature
2011 Carnegie Museum Natural History: Whales evolved from wolf-like creature
2001 University Michigan: Whales evolved from cat-like creature
1999 Tokyo Institute of Sciences: Whales evolved from hippo-like creature
1998 California Academy of Sciences: Whales evolved from hyena-like creature


And now we have yet more scientists who worship at the altar of Darwinism admitting fraud, and tinkering with fossils to make them fit their ideology.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-11-2014 , 01:15 PM
Things were a lot different in RGT in 2011. Seems to have improved for the better.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-11-2014 , 01:20 PM
could have just posted the link to the author trying to sell his wares instead of the gigantic copy and paste
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-11-2014 , 01:52 PM
I find it hard to believe that all paleontologists were fooled by fossils of land mammals with fins and blowholes attached.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-11-2014 , 06:38 PM
Actually not that hard to believe. Fake fossils are big business as they are worth millions. The first bird like dino fossil was a fake. Real ones have been found since. Same will be true for the whale ones. I think for whales the 2013 find in Peru is undisputed. If you know that eventually a real fossile will be found and can extrapolate what it will look like then it is worth trying to sell a fake. Of course the fakes feed people like festering zit but these days they are ignored because there is so much other evidence for common decent besides fossils and no competing theory exists.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-11-2014 , 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch101
Actually not that hard to believe. Fake fossils are big business as they are worth millions. The first bird like dino fossil was a fake. Real ones have been found since. Same will be true for the whale ones. I think for whales the 2013 find in Peru is undisputed. If you know that eventually a real fossile will be found and can extrapolate what it will look like then it is worth trying to sell a fake. Of course the fakes feed people like festering zit but these days they are ignored because there is so much other evidence for common decent besides fossils and no competing theory exists.
Not even close to being true.

Oh, by the way, it's spelled "descent."
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-11-2014 , 08:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch101
Actually not that hard to believe. Fake fossils are big business as they are worth millions. The first bird like dino fossil was a fake. Real ones have been found since. Same will be true for the whale ones. I think for whales the 2013 find in Peru is undisputed. If you know that eventually a real fossile will be found and can extrapolate what it will look like then it is worth trying to sell a fake. Of course the fakes feed people like festering zit but these days they are ignored because there is so much other evidence for common decent besides fossils and no competing theory exists.
Personally, I'm going to wait until I find (or someone gives me) a source that isn't from an anti-evolution or creation science website supporting FesteringZit's claim to take it very seriously.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-11-2014 , 10:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Personally, I'm going to wait until I find (or someone gives me) a source that isn't from an anti-evolution or creation science website supporting FesteringZit's claim to take it very seriously.
Source isn't important when you believe that leading scientists in the fields of genetics, biology and neuroscience are only at the top of their field because they propagate a lie and a conspiracy. Moreover, source isn't important when you're incapable of acknowledging that there are people out there who are genuinely smarter and more capable than yourself: when you've been spoon-fed the notion that we're all somehow equal.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-12-2014 , 12:58 AM
My reply was to the post above it. Fake fossils have definitely made it into museums. I have given up on festering zit a long time ago but I am glad he spells better than me.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-12-2014 , 07:55 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by festeringZit
In another thread that has been locked, a Darwinist on here
said that Dawkins presented an air-tight case for evolution in his book
(that I am currently reading) called "Greatest Show on Earth."

I found this laughable, since Dawkins for the most part says he's not
going to cover the details, but he shows one illustration from another
book (p. 171).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whale_evolution

I really don't care whether or not Dawkins is an idiot.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-12-2014 , 01:23 PM
I am not a Dawkins supporter or defender or whatever but here is my 2c. I don't think Dawkins is a liar (I could be wrong...). I don't agree with Dawkins' worldview but I think he is sincere about what he believes. That is to say I think that he thinks he is actually correct.

I don't see Dawkins as setting out to deceive people. If we label someone a liar then we need to have support for that charge. Making a claim I think is right today and then later on changing my mind... that doesn't qualify as lying.

Evolutionary biology is a field with many unknowns however the shared knowledge base is growing. There should be space for data to be interpreted differently over time.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-12-2014 , 10:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
I am not a Dawkins supporter or defender or whatever but here is my 2c. I don't think Dawkins is a liar (I could be wrong...). I don't agree with Dawkins' worldview but I think he is sincere about what he believes. That is to say I think that he thinks he is actually correct.

I don't see Dawkins as setting out to deceive people. If we label someone a liar then we need to have support for that charge. Making a claim I think is right today and then later on changing my mind... that doesn't qualify as lying.

Evolutionary biology is a field with many unknowns however the shared knowledge base is growing. There should be space for data to be interpreted differently over time.
Dawkins worldview is very much a culmination of data interpreted through a lens that demands the least assumptions possible. Of course, his worldview is still limited to some assumptions - e.g., material reality exists independently to the observer - and other more basic philosophical and empirical assumptions. Also his worldview is not static and forever unchanging, but rather it is dynamic and adaptive - as more data is accumulated and more is known proportional changes in interpretation occur.

This is how all good scientists align and continuously re-align their beliefs, until the difference between the data and the interpretation is minimal. It is the height of arrogance to assume that those who spend more time with the data have an erroneous worldview compared to those who spend less time with the data. Ultimately it is as simple as that. I would personally never argue with an evolutionary biologist about the data in his field; after all, I've probably spent 30 000 - 40 000 hours less with that data compared to him.

It is the equivalent to arguing with a surgeon about a particular procedure he's about to perform on you just because of some basic research you've done over google for a few hours a week over a few years. You'd most likely trust the surgeon - after all, he's spent more time dealing with the data (case-study data in this case) than you have. Note here that this has absolutely nothing to do with education or indoctrination, but simply - time spent with data. Most differences in interpretation stem from differences in this factor alone.

What about Dawkins' worldview do you personally disagree with?

Last edited by VeeDDzz`; 08-12-2014 at 10:51 PM.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-13-2014 , 02:07 PM
Quote:
What about Dawkins' worldview do you personally disagree with?
I think RD believes his science supports atheism, IMO this is incorrect. It is important to delineate between methodological naturalism and philosophical naturalism. The evangelical minority that wants to re define science is silly. Methodological naturalism is clearly the best way to perform science.

There are scientists who hold religious beliefs while carrying out their work using methodological naturalism (Ken Miller, Francis Collins etc.). Personally one can deny philosophical naturalism while professionally adhere to methodological naturalism. I don't think this requires cognitive dissonance.

Science is primarily about the study of the natural realm so it makes sense we adhere to naturalism. It is a categorical error to expect science to give us all the answers to the spiritual/supernatural arena.

Quote:
Dawkins worldview is very much a culmination of data interpreted through a lens that demands the least assumptions possible. Of course, his worldview is still limited to some assumptions - e.g., material reality exists independently to the observer - and other more basic philosophical and empirical assumptions. Also his worldview is not static and forever unchanging, but rather it is dynamic and adaptive - as more data is accumulated and more is known proportional changes in interpretation occur
RD's worldview is comprised of a lot of things not just science. RD's worldview is influenced by his childhood, his spouse, his country of origin etc. I believe RD is a very good biologist. I don't question his open mindedness to new scientific data. I think the philosophical conclusions he comes to "based on science" are not correct, or at the very least up for discussion.

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This is how all good scientists align and continuously re-align their beliefs, until the difference between the data and the interpretation is minimal. It is the height of arrogance to assume that those who spend more time with the data have an erroneous worldview compared to those who spend less time with the data. Ultimately it is as simple as that. I would personally never argue with an evolutionary biologist about the data in his field; after all, I've probably spent 30 000 - 40 000 hours less with that data compared to him.
I think you are discussing "scientific world view" and I am making reference to world view on the whole. I would also not take any time arguing with a biologist about what the data is. I would however have a discussion in regards to what the data *means*.

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Note here that this has absolutely nothing to do with education or indoctrination, but simply - time spent with data. Most differences in interpretation stem from differences in this factor alone.
I don't agree that time spent with data automatically means one will interpret it more accurately. My objection is more broad in the sense of what the reach of science should be. I agree that biologists will interpret their respective data the best. However, biologists may not be the best at applying biology to spirituality.

Last edited by LEMONZEST; 08-13-2014 at 02:13 PM.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-13-2014 , 03:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
However, biologists may not be the best at applying biology to spirituality.
Whoooaaaaa! Hold on there fella. I was following you until this part at the end.

Why would you apply biology to spirituality and who would be the best at it? Also, what results are we seeing from this?
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-13-2014 , 04:46 PM
Quote:
Why would you apply biology to spirituality and who would be the best at it?
People can infer many things from biology... rightly or wrongly... I don't believe biologist have an edge in regards to interpretation of data.

For example, one may conclude evolution by natural selection is a wasteful and cruel mechanism and therefore God does not exist. Conversely, one may conclude all the diversity and beauty in nature is evidence of a creative force.

These types of interpretations can be made by anyone, the opinions of biologists don't carry more weight in my mind.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-13-2014 , 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
People can infer many things from biology... rightly or wrongly... I don't believe biologist have an edge in regards to interpretation of data.
You dont think that biologists have an edge in regards to interpretation of biological data? I guess it depends what you mean by "interpretation".


Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
For example, one may conclude evolution by natural selection is a wasteful and cruel mechanism and therefore God does not exist. Conversely, one may conclude all the diversity and beauty in nature is evidence of a creative force.

These types of interpretations can be made by anyone, the opinions of biologists don't carry more weight in my mind.
But these are not interpretations of biological data? I guess in a very very general sense they are, but I dont think biological data would lead to either conclusion, since these are just subjective opinions.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-13-2014 , 05:50 PM
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these are just subjective opinions.
Exactly.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-13-2014 , 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
Exactly.
then they are nothing to do with the data, or at least, they are opinions that dont follow from the data.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-13-2014 , 06:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neeeel
then they are nothing to do with the data, or at least, they are opinions that dont follow from the data.
I would say they are extrapolations from the data which are indeed opinions.

Opinions which do not necessarily follow from the data. I am sure in RD's own mind his atheism does follow from what he has learned studying biology. As you say this gets more into the realm of opinion and bias than actual fact.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-13-2014 , 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
I think RD believes his science supports atheism, IMO this is incorrect. It is important to delineate between methodological naturalism and philosophical naturalism. The evangelical minority that wants to re define science is silly. Methodological naturalism is clearly the best way to perform science.

There are scientists who hold religious beliefs while carrying out their work using methodological naturalism (Ken Miller, Francis Collins etc.). Personally one can deny philosophical naturalism while professionally adhere to methodological naturalism. I don't think this requires cognitive dissonance.

Science is primarily about the study of the natural realm so it makes sense we adhere to naturalism. It is a categorical error to expect science to give us all the answers to the spiritual/supernatural arena.
It is a basic observational error to postulate the existence of a "spiritual/supernatural arena". Where is the evidence for this supernatural arena? where does it reside? and what does it consist of? because in my 27 years on this earth I've never come across a "supernatural arena" nor have I had any inclination to unnecessarily postulate its existence.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
I think the philosophical conclusions he comes to "based on science" are not correct, or at the very least up for discussion.
What conclusions in particular are you referring to? because I'm starting to get the impression that you've never read anything by R Dawkins.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
I think you are discussing "scientific world view" and I am making reference to world view on the whole. I would also not take any time arguing with a biologist about what the data is. I would however have a discussion in regards to what the data *means*.
You would have a discussion about what the data "means" and you would be wrong. Do you know why you would be wrong? because you haven't spent enough time with the data.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
I don't agree that time spent with data automatically means one will interpret it more accurately.
Why is that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
My objection is more broad in the sense of what the reach of science should be. I agree that biologists will interpret their respective data the best. However, biologists may not be the best at applying biology to spirituality.
Applying biology to spirituality? Why would a scientist apply a whole lot of assumptions to the interpretation of his data when his goal is to eliminate any and all assumptions possible? Also, can you please define spirituality for me? because most biologists don't believe in the existence of "spirituality" in the sense of the word that you're using - hence the avoidance of this assumption.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-13-2014 , 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
People can infer many things from biology... rightly or wrongly... I don't believe biologist have an edge in regards to interpretation of data.

For example, one may conclude evolution by natural selection is a wasteful and cruel mechanism and therefore God does not exist. Conversely, one may conclude all the diversity and beauty in nature is evidence of a creative force.

These types of interpretations can be made by anyone, the opinions of biologists don't carry more weight in my mind.
I would recommend "The Greatest Show on Earth" by Dawkins if you think that this is his view because this couldn't be further from his interpretation of the data. His whole book is about celebrating the natural in all its glory, without the need for superfluous supernatural - without the need for additional assumptions.
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-14-2014 , 03:34 AM
"But Dawkins fails
to mention that very recently the "evolutionary theory" of the day was
that whales descended from mesonychids, an order of extinct
carnivorous mammals quite unlike hippos. Yet now, the supposedly
*overwhleming* evidence of mesonychid ancestry PRESENTED
DOGMATICALLY AS FACT has to be explained away."

Yeah see as new evidence and research comes to light the "theory of the day" changes. This is good, not a point of weakness to be attacked.

I'm curious as to why you think cherry-picked quotes from 1962, 1985 and 1990 are at all relevant to the legitimacy of current theories explaining evolution now in 2014?
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote
08-14-2014 , 05:39 AM
Yeah I think I've got a similar view as Neel here. When you used the term 'interpreting the data' I assumed you meant specific data when it appears instead to be more of a subjective comment on the theory and doesn't really require much, if any, knowledge of the actual scientific data re genetics etc
Richard Dawkins on Whale Evolution Quote

      
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