Is there any interest in one of these?

There was talk in SMP but it never materialized. I think something like "The God Delusion" would be quite good as Dawkins specifically wrote it to hopefully convert theists to atheists if I remember the foreword correctly. I remember my religious friend read it and it sparked some lively debate about organized/personal religion and the OT God.

Thoughts or other book suggestions?

how about starting with the bible?

tl;dr

They have a picture bible for you.

Its late here but off the top of my head I would suggest St. Thomas Aquinas' "Summa Theologica" and Bertrand Russell's "Religion and Science".

Malcolm X, you're treading in dangerous waters.

His suggestion is perfectly reasonable.

I'm not interested in The God Delusion, primarily because, from what I've read of it (reviews by Christian philosophers and the first chapter, other excerpts), it's not very well done and fairly easy to debunk. If you want to read an atheist book with some content Michael Martin is supposed to be good - the atheist that I've heard gives the most trouble for theism is J.L. Mackie - not sure if he is too technical but might be worth a look.

From the theistic side, I'm currently reading Craig's Reasonable Faith, which covers an enormous amount of ground and is fairly easy though not simplistic. In two chapters he discusses the existence of God and covers most of the theistic arguments, including a fair amount of physics in conjuction with the cosmological and teleological arguments. There's also an excellent section on the resurrection, which is a specialty of his - I think he did one of his Ph.D.'s on this in Germany.

NotReady, it surprises me that you would offer this suggestion and I'm curious to know why?

Why?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Miracle-Thei...2416750&sr=8-1
The price is a bit much for the Mackie book.

Reasonable Faith looks alright, might see if I can flick through it in the bookshop. I'd be prepared to run this by the way if we do decide to do it.

I'd rather do Craig but I always am encouraged when I can mash the best arguments of the atheists - Dawkins is too easy. BTW, didn't know Mackie was expensive - that is a factor, and I already own Craig, so that might be best for me. Martin might still be an option for the atheists.

I suggested Dawkins because it is obviously very atheistic and a bit ridiculous at times so more likely to prompt debate.

If you think the Craig one isn't too generalized bull**** religion that would be a good choice.

I think The God Delusion would be awesome. I have picked it up a few times but find it hard to read without being able to discuss it. Count me in if we can do The God Delusion.

Dawkins would be too easy. Read this to see why:

http://www.reasonablefaith.org/site/...rticle&id=6831

Mackie's Miracle of Theism is $27 at Amazon and Martin's books about the same. I would need to be sure of at least 5 or 6 participants to make it worth while. I will do Dawkins but would be disappointed.

Craig is very substantive though he is a Christian evangelist. His arguments are very powerful and I've seen him in debates where my judgment is he usually wins easily over knowledgeable atheists. His book covers a lot of territory and would allow for very wide ranging discussion.

Anyway, that's my evaluation. Let me know if there's any further interest.

Edit: BTW, in the link I gave above the subject is the ontological argument. I personally don't think this argument is very strong so I mildly disagree with Craig here - just to let you know I don't rubber stamp Craig though I think he's the best Christian philosopher currently writing.

I've never seen Craig debate but I've been to two atheist/theist debates and the impression I got was that you can't beat God because he can do anything. I was very disappointed with the whole thing. I thought both Dawkins and Craig came across as idiots in that link you posted.

I understand now. Didn't know you'd be participating and I thought it was odd that you would send unarmed soldiers into battle against someone who

Fine, that would be something we could debate, such as why you say Craig was an idiot. If we do this and it deteriorates to name calling, I'm gone.

We are not unarmed:

Ephesians 6:

13Therefore, take up (AD)the full armor of God, so that you will be able to (AE)resist in (AF)the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.

14Stand firm therefore, (AG)HAVING GIRDED YOUR LOINS WITH TRUTH, and HAVING (AH)PUT ON THE BREASTPLATE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS,

15and having (AI)shod YOUR FEET WITH THE PREPARATION OF THE GOSPEL OF PEACE;

16in addition to all, taking up the (AJ)shield of faith with which you will be able to extinguish all the (AK)flaming arrows of (AL)the evil one.

this is a really, really good suggestion. Seriously I don't think many people realize how ridiculous the average bible verse is. There's a reason that you hear the same ones over and over again at church...

Anything by R. A. Wilson gets my vote.

Reading this I just had a Tucker Carlson flashback this was one of his great tricks. Whenever there was argument made that he did not want to address hw would just say "o no that is not a good argument it is rather elementary but if you really want to stump, you should talk about x, that will really put me in a bind."

The truth of the matter is that you haven't read, perhaps you fear the arguments inside, and would like to have people debate weaker arguments

this thread has actually become more interesting/entertaining as Notready and Big Erf pat each others backs while commenting on how weak the arguments in a text they haven't fully read/understood are. Here is the gem of the thread for me so far from the one who calls himself NotReady:

"I'm not interested in The God Delusion, primarily because, from what I've read of it (reviews by Christian philosophers and the first chapter, other excerpts), it's not very well done and fairly easy to debunk."

Christians didn't recommend the God Delusion? Really? REALLY? Christians feel it is fairly easy to "debunk"? Let me just take that in for a moment. Using this line to eliminate potential texts to read I'm pretty sure we would be left with next to nothing. I know the Bible would be out of the running anyway. (already been debunked by atheist ldo).

If your not going to participate in the reading of texts you don't necessarily agree witht then gtfo.

The God Delusion is mostly a polemic on cultural values. Yes, the devout will remain devout; but it's not hard to persuade the rest that reason and science are a better foundation than faith and religious dogma in the modern world.

Notice that Obama said today: "We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers." (Emphasis mine ldo.)

This is the sufficient step to break religion's stranglehold on a culture. It merely needs to become socially acceptable to affirm the language of common sense, humanism, and reason; and sensible, reasonable humans will cleave to that clarity like salvation itself.

His speech was excellent.

I actually never considered this but some good, well thought out verses could probably lead to some good discussion. Unfortunately, it's hardly my specialist subject so maybe someone else could suggest one.