Interesting teaching by Andrew Gabriel Roth including corrections of fairly widespread erroneous beliefs held by many "Christians" and "Messianics":

What day did Yeshua die? [ Sifting Truth from Tradition ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsErI...feature=relmfu

I resuscitated The Lost Tribes thread with you in mind mangler241. Thought with your Messianic Jewish background you might be interested.

Messianic Jews don't believe in the eternal torment doctrine of hell do they? I came across something on that recently but didn't know if that varies by Messianic Jewish group.

I'm not a Messianic Jew but rather call myself "Messianic" because the label "Christian" is misunderstood or misrepresented. "Yeshua" is a better name to use rather than "Jesus" because: that is the name of the Messiah that was very likely used by his talmidim ( "disciples" ), to highlight he was a Torah-observant Jew and to not be associated with a mischaracterized "Jesus" that can be found among "Christian cults"; OTOH, I don't think it's necessarily incorrect to use the name "Jesus" or "Christ Jesus", especially in a proper way to give honor to the Son of G-d.

You don't believe in the "doctrine of hell"? I believe in the existence of "hell" ( not the Roman Catholic or common "version", but rather in Hades or the grave or Gehenna ), but also the "lake of fire" ( which is different from Gehenna ). I haven't met enough Messianic Jews to have an idea of where many of them stand with respect to the "doctrine of hell", but that's not really so important. Note that the Apostle's Creed ( most versions; notably, the United Methodists don't have the phrase "descended into hell" ) includes a statement that Yeshua descended into hell. Of course, a creedal statement isn't necessarily "correct" ( e.g., I don't believe the trinity formulation is "correct" ) and it's best to simply consider mostly what the New Testament writings say about this. It's quite important to many that believers "get this right" ( as Francis Chan has said; his recent book was likely a response to Rob Bell's Love Wins ). This is not a doctrine that many pastors preach, nor many believers talk about - it's unsavory and hard to swallow; however, if the lost and unbelieving are on a road there, it's mandatory and urgent that every believer be equipped to evangelize, because Yeshua stated that "small is the gate and narrow is the road that leads to life and only a few find it."

Without God freedom includes the seed of both good and evil.

God says in Gen. 3:14-15:

14 And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Couldn't Eve's act in the Garden of Eden be the beginning of human free will? Doesn't Adam follow her and immediately they both encounter the evil separation from God?

So isn't free will both good and evil?

Re: the mysterious narrow road, God begets Jesus Christ who creates his disciples. The ones who respond to his call and leave everything to follow him.

In my interpretation the narrow road is following Jesus Christ with all your heart to 1 Corinthians, chapter 13 which is the premier teaching of Jesus Christ as provided by his word and personal example.

1 Cor. 13:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/...13&version=KJV

You didn't think Yeshua HaMasiach would leave his talmidim in the dark about the narrow road did you?


Colossians 3:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

cf. Matt. 6:43-48, KJV

But you're a good bible student so you might have figured this all out already.

Concerning the doctrine of hell, here was a video I recently watched where Francis Chan and Preston Sprinkle answer a few questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5s4sA8bM0M

You didn't link part 2 of your op video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0C9gO...feature=relmfu

I can tell you in advance I'm not going to agree with this but if I have the time in the next day or two I may watch it.

If you study the OT law God never adjudged a more serious punishment than death for any crime.

We're all already under a death sentence and imo Jesus came to lift further sentencing.

What hell doctrine is effective in doing is in reinforcing the knowledge that people are sinners so they can co-operate with God who seeks to correct human behavior so he can rehabilitate not punish sinners.

You think eternal hell doctrine is a saving doctrine? I don't. I think it's been historically misinterpreted and the least spiritual view has been allowed to prevail mostly by political means.

Jesus Christ saves you from death and so he is owed all honor and praise for doing that. Hell is a superfluous concept.

Also what makes you think God won't reveal in the future that there is no eternal hellfire?

God didn't spend a lot of time on the concept of Satan in the OT. Yet we know from Jesus's statements in the NT that there is a Satan.

Have you even looked at my link to the question: Is Fire Literal or Spiritual? I bet you didn't. Take a look at it some time. God is fire. God appears as fire to Moses in the burning bush.

CHAPTER 3:
The Lake of Fire
or the Molten Sea by Dr. Stephen E. Jones
http://gods-kingdom-ministries.org/B...s/Chapter3.cfm

I can tell you didn't read chapter 3 because you posted Fudge in the RGT videos thread.

Fudge seems well intentioned but he made so many mistakes on hell doctrine it could take a really long time for me to outline them all.

He started out implying he'd address annihilationism, universalism and eternal torment but he really didn't.

And he makes a critical mistake. My guess is he isn't educated in ancient languages because he mistranslates aion, aionios. He should have checked Young's Literal Translation on many of the passages he quoted but it seems he prefers to be traditional over being accurate.

Fudge argues from impressions. What's more accurate an impression or the actual translation of a word?

Do people conform to an impression or to an actual person/being?

I may post more later if I have time. Fudge is well intentioned but an epic fail imo.

He seems Berean by checking passages but he never checked the translations.

On the other hand Dr. Stephen E. Jones is an OT and a NT bible scholar and iirc he knows the ancient languages.

Jerome didn't know the ancient languages he translated the Vulgate from and Augustine is his student.

Quote:

There are also several Bible versions that reject any notion of hell occurring in the original Greek Manuscripts of the New Testament of the Bible. Among others, these versions include Young’s Literal Translation and Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible.

These are amazing and shocking facts that should make any Christian stop in his tracks, and start seriously questioning the validity of the doctrine of hell. Surely, the just and loving God of the Bible, who desires and wills all men to be saved, would have inspired clear, unambiguous statements in the Word of God about such an extreme doctrine as hell. This is absolutely not the case at all, as we have demonstrated.

The truth of the matter is that there is not one single word in the original Hebrew and Greek Manuscripts of the Bible that means hell. As discussed in the previous chapter, hell is a man-invented, pagan, unchristian, heretical belief that was first embraced and christianised by Roman Catholicism and incorporated into the Bible through the Latin Vulgate in the early history of Christianity. The Latin Vulgate reigned supreme for over a thousand years and the doctrine of hell became deeply entrenched into the psyche of the Christian world as if it were a true biblical doctrine. The King James Version (KJV) followed the Latin Vulgate in most of its translation errors and also mistranslated sheol, hades, tartarus and gehenna to mean hell.

More here:

HEBREW AND GREEK WORDS MISTRANSLATED TO MEAN HELL

Mistranslations of Sheol, Hades, Tartarus and Gehenna
http://www.godsplanforall.com/mistranslationstomeanhell

Yes, I am aware of those underlying Greek words and the Hebrew concepts. Fudge is essentially an "annhilationist" which is the position some consider to be the most accurate description of what happens to the "cowardly" , "unbelieving", etc. according to the biblical literature.

Hey mangler you know I have tremendous respect for your opinions because you're what I'd call a "regenerate man". Not only that you've backed your spiritual regeneratedness with an extremely high IQ what with being a member of Mensa and all.

Now what if the current traditional hell doctrine stems from a left brain dominance?

Look at all the left brainers in RGT.

Don't all the literal fundy atheists look a lot like all the literal fundy Christians in the way they interpret things?

The way people interpret things is through brain function.

I took a right brain/left brain test and I'm more integrated than most: 55% left brain, 45% right brain...so I'm left brain dominant.

Still I'm able to interpret symbols probably from my right brained abilities and God is fire in the OT. Why does that fire have to be destructive and not purifying in its' objective?

When you purify something can't you destroy the evil and leave the rest in a new and improved condition?

Take time to do the right/brain tests linked here:
http://ibpsychology.wetpaint.com/pag...Brain+Research

I bet you're going with the traditional hell doctrine from left brain preference.

But God is a master of symbology. Aren't the Christian Universalists better symbolic interpreters than the traditional hell doctrine interpreters?

Jesus had a decoy, its was Jobs task to point out that decoy, he was happy to take the burden of everyone thinking he betrayed Jesus when in fact he didn't. The decoy was like 'I'm not Jesus' but nobody believed him and it wasn't recorded. The decoy cried on the cross 'father why have you forsaken me', Jesus wouldn't do that cause he knew his father wouldn't do forsake him. The real Jesus hid in the tomb where they would take the decoys body, like magic he appeared resurrected.

We'll be astonished of how badly the "king of Heaven", Yeshua the Messiah, was physically beaten.

Yeah, where'd you learn that lie from?

None of his disciples testified to that.

So it sounds like something you made up for the hell of it.

oh no it was just a theory, I kinda extrapolated it from the bible stories. Was wondering if you all felt it could be true or not?

I left out the part where the decoy was Jesus twin Jonathon

Its actually in apocryphal writings. Forgot which book but supposedly Jesus was watching, with i think Peter?, the crucifixion.

knew it.

Except that Jesus never said that. He said: "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

That would be a direct quote from the first line of psalm 21.

Read the Psalm to understand why Jesus said it.

I thought it was Psalm 22?

Ahh!!

I thought if i just used the one quote ' ' then I could sort of paraphrase slightly....I guess I just made that rule up.