Respecting other religious beliefs... - Page 4 - Religion, God, and Theology

This is worded really strangely to me. You say "I suppose not" to mean no, it's not an action, and then say you don't endorse that course of action. Would you please reiterate?

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What do you think of some faith-based initiatives? Like the genuine ones. I've got an old friend from college who decided to move into one of the worst locations in the city instead of the suburbs, and dedicate his life towards helping the inner city kids and families. He's been down there for 10+ years now, has adopted a couple (older) kids in rough situations, helped them through to independence, started a tutoring program for the community, which evolved into a charter school, which has now graduated a few dozen kids who have gotten scholarships to decent colleges.

I'm for anything that has what I perceive to be an overall positive effect, faith-based or not.

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I don't care if his driving force is Christianity, Buddhism, or evolutionary empathy. I hold him and his family in the utmost respect based on their actions, not their beliefs.

I agree. However, that's a little bit different than what's being discussed here. Would you, for instance, respect/not respect someone who is a racist/sexist if you didn't have any knowledge of his actions? How about if he happened to do 'X' good deed?

Last edited by asdfasdf32; 10-06-2012 at 11:11 PM.

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10-06-2012 , 11:41 PM

#77

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,158

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Originally Posted by bunny

6. Understanding probability is a sign of intelligence.

Bet people who get A's in undergraduate probability and statistic classes are on average more than one standard deviation above mean in any standardized intelligence test.

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10-06-2012 , 11:43 PM

#78

David Sklansky

Administrator

Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 17,158

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Originally Posted by LEMONZEST

It seems counterproductive for me to tell a Mormon, "I think your belief system is dumb and I can't believe you actual buy all that mumbo jumbo".

I never said otherwise.

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10-06-2012 , 11:47 PM

#79

LEMONZEST

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky

I never said otherwise.

David,

Sorry if my post wasn't clear. Only the first couple lines were in reference to your points. The last part of my post was just my general thoughts on respecting people, more in relation to OP.

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10-07-2012 , 12:21 AM

#80

Cwocwoc

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Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

Would you, for instance, respect/not respect someone who is a racist/sexist if you didn't have any knowledge of his actions? How about if he happened to do 'X' good deed?

You are comparing religious people to sexists and racists ! It is far more likely that atheists will be sexist and racist as their values are "self-taught". Religious people learn good values through their religion.

Answering your question "X" deserves respect if his good deeds outweigh his bad ones. Most great respected men are flawed eg Muhammad Ali, Nelson Mandela etc etc.

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10-07-2012 , 12:54 AM

#81

asdfasdf32

True Facts

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

If you don't mind Cwocwoc, I wasn't addressing you. And your second sentence is lol wrong, btw. (If you want to address this, please address the racial component only as your definition of 'sexist' is far enough removed from what others deem 'sexist' as to greatly diminish the possibility of a sensible conversation)

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10-07-2012 , 12:57 AM

#82

Cwocwoc

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Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

If you don't mind Cwocwoc, I wasn't addressing you.

We have a PM system for private messaging. If you throw it out here expect replies from all comers.

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Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

And your second sentence is lol wrong, btw (If you want to address this, please address the racial component only as your definition of 'sexist' is far removed from what others will deem as sexist.)

Taking advantage of women for casual sex is generally seen as being sexist/misogynistic. I dunno how it can be seen another way. However to address your "racist" element the medical missionary Albert Schweitzer was heavily criticised for his "colonial" attitude to Africans but he is still highly respected.

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10-07-2012 , 01:03 AM

#83

asdfasdf32

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

We have a PM system for private messaging. If you throw it out here expect replies from all comers.

That's fine, but understand that I'll probably take the same route Original Position is taking toward you:

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Originally Posted by Original Position

I think we have different conversational goals, so I don't really have much to say to you.

...

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

(1) I'm not responding to the sexist/misogynistic claim, as mentioned earlier. (2) Your Albert Schweitzer example doesn't address your claim...at all.

Your claim was:

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

It is far more likely that atheists will be sexist and racist as their values are "self-taught".

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10-07-2012 , 01:27 AM

#84

bunny

will feast on your soul

Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 11,219

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Originally Posted by David Sklansky

Bet people who get A's in undergraduate probability and statistic classes are on average more than one standard deviation above mean in any standardized intelligence test.

That's not "obviously" ridiculous so you're ok.

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10-07-2012 , 01:27 AM

#85

Cwocwoc

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Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

That's fine, but understand that I'll probably take the same route Original Position is taking toward you:

...

(1) I'm not responding to the sexist/misogynistic claim, as mentioned earlier. (2) Your Albert Schweitzer example doesn't address your claim...at all.

Your claim was:

Please stop bickering !

The AS example adresses the issue of whether or not people with racist attitudes should be respected. All of us are flawed and you need to look at the person as a whole.

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10-07-2012 , 01:30 AM

#86

bunny

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

If the source of religious people's morality is their religion, the relative morality of the two groups is pretty much going to depend on whether the religion teaches sexist and/or racist things. Isn't it?

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10-07-2012 , 01:35 AM

#87

asdfasdf32

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

Please stop bickering !

The AS example adresses the issue of whether or not people with racist attitudes should be respected. All of us are flawed and you need to look at the person as a whole.

I never said otherwise. You should, of course, look at a person's beliefs and actions, and weigh them accordingly. I'm not sure if montecarlo agrees, hence the ensuing conversation.

And you still didn't address your earlier claim that I was in opposition to:

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

It is far more likely that atheists will be sexist and racist as their values are "self-taught".

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10-07-2012 , 01:47 AM

#88

Cwocwoc

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Originally Posted by bunny

Religions teach good things because they would never have gained much support otherwise. How many would have supported Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha etc if they had been bad eggs ?!?!?

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10-07-2012 , 01:48 AM

#89

bunny

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

Religions teach good things because they would never have gained support otherwise. How many would have supported Jesus, Muhammad, Buddha etc if they had been bad eggs ?!?!?

Everyone frightened of going to hell?

Do you think the Westboro baptist church teaches good things?

EDIT: note that this doesn't actually address the point though. Even if religions are universally not sexist and racist it's still the case that the relative morality of atheists and the religious is going to depend on the morality of the religion. It has nothing to do with atheist values being "self taught" as you initially claimed.

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10-07-2012 , 01:50 AM

#90

bunny

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Also, by your argument, prior to religions people were more likely to be immoral. Why would "bad eggs" be likely to support teachings of people like Jesus and Buddha?

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10-07-2012 , 01:52 AM

#91

Cwocwoc

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Originally Posted by bunny

Everyone frightened of going to hell?

Do you think the Westboro baptist church teaches good things?

You're proving my point there's only forty of them ! Anyway we know it's good from reading the "Good Books".

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10-07-2012 , 01:54 AM

#92

Cwocwoc

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Originally Posted by bunny

Also, by your argument, prior to religions people were more likely to be immoral. Why would Buddha being a "good egg" result in bad eggs converting to Buddhism?

They see the error of their ways and get it.

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10-07-2012 , 01:57 AM

#93

bunny

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

You're proving my point there's only forty of them !

Err, no I'm not.

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Anyway we know it's good from reading the "Good Books".

This is hard to argue with, but a little meaningless (since the atheist knows his moral, "self taught" values are better than the religious ones by essentially the same method).

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10-07-2012 , 02:07 AM

#94

Cwocwoc

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Quote:

Originally Posted by bunny

since the atheist knows his moral, "self taught" values are better than the religious ones by essentially the same method.

Most irreligious people seem to get their values from what they see on the TV.

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10-07-2012 , 02:17 AM

#95

bunny

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Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 11,219

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

Most irreligious people seem to get their values from what they see on the TV.

Let me know when you've made up your mind.

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10-07-2012 , 03:34 AM

#96

quadas

adept

Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 973

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Originally Posted by Cwocwoc

It is far more likely that atheists will be sexist and racist as their values are "self-taught". Religious people learn good values through their religion.

This is about as far from the truth as possible. Atheists are the most underrepresented group in American prisons.
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

Best explanation I've read for this:

"Propensity to commit a crime is inversely correlated with education level and income. Atheism is directly correlated with education."

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10-07-2012 , 03:44 AM

#97

Godoftheatheists

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so how is number 3 on Davids list not applied to society?

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10-07-2012 , 03:50 AM

#98

asdfasdf32

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Originally Posted by Godoftheatheists

so how is number 3 on Davids list not applied to society?

It is applied to society. It wouldn't be strange for a person to have contempt for a society that voted to outlaw something which they felt shouldn't be outlawed.

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10-07-2012 , 04:00 AM

#99

Cwocwoc

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Originally Posted by quadas

1. This is about as far from the truth as possible. Atheists are the most underrepresented group in American prisons.
http://www.holysmoke.org/icr-pri.htm

2. Best explanation I've read for this:

3."Propensity to commit a crime is inversely correlated with education level and income. Atheism is directly correlated with education."

1. Of course they are there's not much else to do, people tend to turn to God in times of trouble and they get out quicker if they show that they are rehabilitated.

2. I've just given you three alternative explanations.

3. Educated people tend to be richer and the money tends to corrupt them so they spend it on hedonistic worldly things.

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10-07-2012 , 04:14 AM

#100

Godoftheatheists

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Quote:

Originally Posted by asdfasdf32

It is applied to society. It wouldn't be strange for a person to have contempt for a society that voted to outlaw something which they felt shouldn't be outlawed.

Not sure what you mean by that so I can't respond. I think you should read more carefully into what David said. Let me help you.

3. Society think laws should be passed
to force others who believe differently
to behave in accordance with their
beliefs.

Last edited by Godoftheatheists; 10-07-2012 at 04:22 AM.

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