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Religious History in Schools Religious History in Schools

05-20-2010 , 11:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Weatherhead03
One of the best cop-out attempts ive seen on here in some time.
It's a cop-out that i dont want to do what someone else suggests ?

that's all u got, huh ? weak
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05-20-2010 , 11:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunth0807
Then why was i forced to take like 10 tests, know every greek/roman god memorized, all their supposed powers, make a board game as a project, and even *cough* carve a sphinx out of a bar a soap (looking back, i can't believe i agreed to do this). It is a set up.

I heard zeus and just about any other greek/roman god mentioned in class like 100 times, but never Jesus, not one time.
Is this really that hard for you?

Nobody ever kills anyone else in the name of Zeus anymore. Those religions are no longer dangerous to anyone's freedom to get an abortion, or marry someone of the same sex, or buy liquor on Sunday, or PLAY POKER, or a whole host of other wonderful things Christianity still gives us in society.

Because the religions of the ancient Greeks and Romans has died off as actual mystical belief, they are no longer a threat to secular, civil society the way Christianity (and Islam and some others) still are. Thus, nobody goes "how dare you teach about Zeus but not Allah" the way they would say "how dare you teach about Allah but not Jesus," or vice versa.

The fact that a bunch of ancients worshipped these gods which everybody now agrees were fictional does not offend anybody's sensibilities (except yours, I guess). The fact that you think God was displeased with you for cutting a sphinx out of a bar of soap for a school project is pure folly and you should really think about seeing a psychiatrist.

At the point in history where people have decided to stop believing that an ancient Jewish itinerant preacher/carpenter is actually an omniscient, omnipotent, immortal zombie god who commands them to be straight, be poor, and defeat their biology by not having lustful thoughts so they can get into religious Candyland when they die...then I'm sure there will be less controversy about teaching more of the details without worrying that the state is sponsoring belief in any specific set of religious "truths" still being pushed as fact by a large segment of society.
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05-20-2010 , 11:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Roulette
It's a cop-out that i dont want to do what someone else suggests ?

that's all u got, huh ? weak
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Wikipedia articles have statements about certain poker sites that i know not to be true.
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I could go rip apart a few WIKI articles about various pokersites if you like ?
Weak.
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05-20-2010 , 11:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunth0807
Then why was i forced to take like 10 tests, know every greek/roman god memorized, all their supposed powers, make a board game as a project, and even *cough* carve a sphinx out of a bar a soap (looking back, i can't believe i agreed to do this). It is a set up.

I heard zeus and just about any other greek/roman god mentioned in class like 100 times, but never Jesus, not one time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunth0807
Look i was skeptic for almost 20 years.
How old are you?
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05-21-2010 , 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Jibninjas
i agree. you cannot talk about history without talking about various religions, but public schools at the high school or down level should not have anything to do with religious specifics.
I think this is one area where reasonable atheists and "reasonable" (not trying to offend, just can't think of the right term ) believers can agree.

Religion has been a very prevalent force throughout history, whether for good or bad, and to not have it be taught in schools is ridiculous, especially considering the crap that is taught.

And I think as far as religious specifics goes, do you mean theology? If so, I agree. Comparative religion should be taught, theology should not be.

Last edited by Maximum Rocknroll; 05-21-2010 at 12:04 AM. Reason: no surprise jib is the sensible one
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05-21-2010 , 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Gunth0807
Melchy you find me a history book in the classrooms that mentions Jesus.
Just off the top of my head: Civilization in the West, Voyages in World History, Traditions and Encounters, Ways of the World, A History of Western Civilization. Those are the first five I could think of that I have used or other teachers have used in high school and college classrooms in the last few years I've taught. All of them have extensive discussion of Jesus, his teachings, his followers, the expansion of Christianity, and its cultural impact. I don't know where these strawman textbooks you think exist come from, but I imagine it's in the mind of some loony on the religious right who thinks Christianity is under attack in the most overtly Christian nation on the planet.

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I am not going to deny they don't teach a little church history, but they don't do it in any kind of religious way. But when they teach ancient greek/roman mythology they go in to every last detail pretty much.
What do you mean "in a religious way?" Like, "this is the TRUE religion?" lol. In my experience, Greek and Roman mythology takes up considerably less space in history textbooks (for survey courses), standards, and course coverage than Christianity, Islam, or other "major" religions. It wouldn't be appropriate to cover religion in a "religious" way, whatever this means.
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05-21-2010 , 12:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Turn Prophet
Just off the top of my head: Civilization in the West, Voyages in World History, Traditions and Encounters, Ways of the World, A History of Western Civilization. Those are the first five I could think of that I have used or other teachers have used in high school and college classrooms in the last few years I've taught. All of them have extensive discussion of Jesus, his teachings, his followers, the expansion of Christianity, and its cultural impact. I don't know where these strawman textbooks you think exist come from, but I imagine it's in the mind of some loony on the religious right who thinks Christianity is under attack in the most overtly Christian nation on the planet.
well tbf gunth just made some 20 years comment so its possible he is just ignorant as to what current textbooks contain - i forget middle school (dont even think we had a history course in middle school actually) but HS books def all had it. i cant say for certain considering my age but maybe backwhen he was in school they didnt mention him?

in any case gunth youre wrong.. as usual.

also gunth youre ancient greek/roman courses definitely went out of their way to point out the inaccuracies in those religions and why theyre really not around today.. would you be cool if thats how the christian one was taught? id certainly sign up!
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05-21-2010 , 12:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Jibninjas
FYP
Not to nit, but... Actually, we ARE apes. We share a common ancestor with a chimpanzee as well as a cactus.
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05-21-2010 , 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by SammyKid11

Nobody ever kills anyone else in the name of Zeus anymore. .
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05-21-2010 , 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Weatherhead03
Weak.
Get your own adjective.
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05-21-2010 , 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Lestat
Not to nit, but... Actually, we ARE apes. We share a common ancestor with a chimpanzee as well as a cactus.
Our genes have been intentionally mixed in my opinion.

Lets see, 2 down syndrome caveman got together and made you or a species similar to us bred with cavemen.

How did we get 2 dna changes to produce what we are ?

All of the ancients said we came from aliens and that would explain the different dna magically appearing here 10k years ago.

Or you can believe a bunch of pompous clowns who buy every word darwin says and close your mind to what the rest of the world has always been saying.

Also, we can close our minds to future ideas, Durwood figured out everything. Him and that cokehead mofo shrink.
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05-21-2010 , 12:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunth0807
I am not going to deny they don't teach a little church history, but they don't do it in any kind of religious way.
Why on earth should they do it in a religious way? To appease you, because you happen to be Christian?

What exactly are you looking for? Do you want Jesus' miracles being taught? You want public schools to mention the virgin birth and resurrection as though they were fact and a part of history?!! Not in my kid's school. You can learn fairy tales in Sunday school.
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05-21-2010 , 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Roulette
Our genes have been intentionally mixed in my opinion.

Lets see, 2 down syndrome caveman got together and made you or a species similar to us bred with cavemen.

How did we get 2 dna changes to produce what we are ?

All of the ancients said we came from aliens and that would explain the different dna magically appearing here 10k years ago.

Or you can believe a bunch of pompous clowns who buy every word darwin says and close your mind to what the rest of the world has always been saying.

Also, we can close our minds to future ideas, Durwood figured out everything. Him and that cokehead mofo shrink.
The next time those nice men in white coats come to visit your room, tell them your medications need to be strengthened.
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05-21-2010 , 12:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Lestat
The next time those nice men in white coats come to visit your room, tell them your medications need to be strengthened.
Ahhh the old "say they need meds" when faced with some logic you just can't quite beat. I see it a lot. It displays your level of knowledge.
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05-21-2010 , 12:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
Why on earth should they do it in a religious way? To appease you, because you happen to be Christian?

What exactly are you looking for? Do you want Jesus' miracles being taught? You want public schools to mention the virgin birth and resurrection as though they were fact and a part of history?!! Not in my kid's school. You can learn fairy tales in Sunday school.
I want my kids goin to school and the pond out back divides in 2, cookies fallin from the sky. All of that stuff.
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05-21-2010 , 01:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
Why on earth should they do it in a religious way? To appease you, because you happen to be Christian?

What exactly are you looking for? Do you want Jesus' miracles being taught? You want public schools to mention the virgin birth and resurrection as though they were fact and a part of history?!! Not in my kid's school. You can learn fairy tales in Sunday school.
Okay, what if the people are actually in favor of it? Say a state has a 70% majority of a certain religion and the people pass a referendum stating that the religion's history will be taught in school.

Which is the higher good - 'separation of church and state' or 'the will of the people made manifest'?

FWIW - I am a rabid libertarian and have been for some time, longer than being christian.



I didn't vote for Bush. I view the republican party as embracing hypocrisy and the democrats as embracing foolishness. Both are blatantly bribed by lobbyists. Both subvert democracy with rider bills. They both suck hard.
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05-21-2010 , 01:23 AM
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Originally Posted by cowboy2579
Okay, what if the people are actually in favor of it? Say a state has a 70% majority of a certain religion and the people pass a referendum stating that the religion's history will be taught in school.
It doesn't matter. You don't put educational facts and knowledge to a vote. If 70% thought hurricanes were the wrath of Poseidon should that be what's taught?
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05-21-2010 , 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Lestat
It doesn't matter. You don't put educational facts and knowledge to a vote. If 70% thought hurricanes were the wrath of Poseidon should that be what's taught?
Sure, what the heck. Good luck on passing that one.

Seriously tho, we are talking about teaching the core tenants of some religion in a school, as approved by the people only. Lets say you are an agnostic secular humanist living in the state and that you are free to pull the child out of the class or not. You can also educate the child yourself, but I doubt it would really take on most kids anyway. Besides, the tenants and accepted beliefs of christians are facts. The issue is church and state separation, not knowledge.

If you are living in a state where you feel like the smartest hillbilly in hillbilly town, maybe you could stand to move anyway.

Last edited by cowboy2579; 05-21-2010 at 01:41 AM.
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05-21-2010 , 01:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russian Roulette
Ahhh the old "say they need meds" when faced with some logic you just can't quite beat. I see it a lot. It displays your level of knowledge.
Let me know when you say something logical. Put it in quotes or something.
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05-21-2010 , 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cowboy2579
Sure, what the heck. Good luck on passing that one.
Well, good luck on getting Christian fairy tales taught in public schools. To me, there's no difference.
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05-21-2010 , 01:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
Well, good luck on getting Christian fairy tales taught in public schools. To me, there's no difference.
?
Not familliar with the texas state board of education are we?
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05-21-2010 , 02:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelchyBeau
?
Not familliar with the texas state board of education are we?
It's my understanding it never passed. Ditto with Dover. Educational boards may try and force feed religious dogma down student's throats, but we have these little things called a constitution and a supreme court. And if I remember correctly, the latest judge to rule against the religious school board was a Christian!
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05-21-2010 , 02:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Russian Roulette
Get your own adjective.
Oh the irony
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05-21-2010 , 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by SammyKid11
Is this really that hard for you?

Nobody ever kills anyone else in the name of Zeus anymore. Those religions are no longer dangerous to anyone's freedom to get an abortion, or marry someone of the same sex, or buy liquor on Sunday, or PLAY POKER, or a whole host of other wonderful things Christianity still gives us in society.

Because the religions of the ancient Greeks and Romans has died off as actual mystical belief, they are no longer a threat to secular, civil society the way Christianity (and Islam and some others) still are. Thus, nobody goes "how dare you teach about Zeus but not Allah" the way they would say "how dare you teach about Allah but not Jesus," or vice versa.

The fact that a bunch of ancients worshipped these gods which everybody now agrees were fictional does not offend anybody's sensibilities (except yours, I guess).

At the point in history where people have decided to stop believing that an ancient Jewish itinerant preacher/carpenter is actually an omniscient, omnipotent, immortal zombie god who commands them to be straight, be poor, and defeat their biology by not having lustful thoughts so they can get into religious Candyland when they die...then I'm sure there will be less controversy about teaching more of the details without worrying that the state is sponsoring belief in any specific set of religious "truths" still being pushed as fact by a large segment of society.
Okay, but a lot of the issues today are issues because of what the Bible says. By not teaching them one word, kids are going out in the world blinded by that huge part of society. I don't think it is unreasonable at all for kids to learn what God's Word says about certain issues.

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The fact that you think God was displeased with you for cutting a sphinx out of a bar of soap for a school project is pure folly and you should really think about seeing a psychiatrist.
Yea it is such a stretch that God would be displeased over the breaking of one of His Commandments.
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05-21-2010 , 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by All-In Flynn
How old are you?
Nunya, quit trolling.

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Which is the higher good - 'separation of church and state' or 'the will of the people made manifest'?
There is no wall to separate Church and state in congress.

Last edited by Gunth0807; 05-21-2010 at 11:00 AM.
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