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Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality.

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Old 04-28-2017, 11:55 AM   #201
festeringZit
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Re: Religion and logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by dynamite22 View Post
If you're a YEC then the other 4 you mention also apply to you.

How do you go from 'the universe may have a creator' to the belief that the bible is the inspired word of that creator?
I'm not a YEC, but I know some who are a lot smarter than you are.
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Old 04-28-2017, 02:37 PM   #202
dynamite22
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
I'm not a YEC, but I know some who are a lot smarter than you are.
does this make their beliefs any less unscientific?
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Old 04-30-2017, 03:43 PM   #203
tikmassy
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Re: Religion and logic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHv3ccox6L4
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Old 05-01-2017, 02:25 PM   #204
dynamite22
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Re: Religion and logic

With that video, are you trying to make any point other than 'the world contains many delusional people, some (or many) of whom are religious'?
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Old 05-01-2017, 04:07 PM   #205
tikmassy
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by dynamite22 View Post
With that video, are you trying to make any point other than 'the world contains many delusional people, some (or many) of whom are religious'?
The title religion and logic. It shows just how illogical religion really is.
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Old 05-01-2017, 04:11 PM   #206
Aaron W.
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by tikmassy View Post
The title religion and logic. It shows just how illogical religion really is.
This use of this video to make this point totally is totally 100% logic. Bro! Cool!

Last edited by Aaron W.; 05-01-2017 at 04:12 PM. Reason: Science!
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Old 05-01-2017, 08:41 PM   #207
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
Believing that an intelligent designer created this universe is a lot more
logical to me than believing that "nothing" created the universe, like
deluded scientists like Richard Dawkins and Stephen Hawkings teach, and
ignorant worshipers who worship them, lap it up like mindless lemmings.

Dawkins: "(The nothing that created the universe) is much simpler than
a creative intelligence"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v34QjYPuiEA
Grunch from being absent from the thread for a while.

I think to myself, "this has to be a troll, right?". And then I remember that 60 million people voted for Trump.
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Old 05-01-2017, 08:50 PM   #208
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
I get the impression that atheists in here put me in a box,
that I'm YEC, non-scientific thinker, non-critical thinker, irrational,
illogical...

Maybe both sides could be better about not generalizing about
the other side?
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'” Isaac Asimov, 1980
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:05 PM   #209
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

Aaron - you seem like a reasonable person who wants to engage in a discussion. I don't want to quote posts individually - this is not because I feel incapable of rebutting your arguments, but because I feel it is not really progressing the discussion, and also, because I am quite frankly too lazy.

I would like you to answer one question - "how do you reconcile logic with religion?". Before you do, I would like to propose my definitions of these terms:

- Religion: A belief that we are here as a result of a preternatural creator, who is omnipresent and omniscient. This creator wants us to adhere to the teachings of the ancients, and if we don't, bad things will happen.

- Logic: The syllogistic system that the human race has developed to demonstrate that the combination of a number of precepts and a non-fallacious argument must lead to a true conclusion. Conversely, if the precepts are false, or the argument fallacious, then the conclusion may be false.
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:20 PM   #210
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by tirtep View Post
Question to op:

Looking at the complexity of human body does YOUR logic tell you that you are a descendant of amoeba?
Yes, it does.

In the same way that it is difficult for the human mind to grasp astronomical distances, it is also rather difficult to grasp evolutionary time scales. Evolution has been compared to a "whirlwind going through a junkyard and assembling a jumbo jet", but it is actually the exact opposite of that; it is a process whereby very slight alterations in successive generations lead to the build-up of the jumbo jet. It is a precise and deterministic process; there is nothing random about it in the long term, as anyone posting on a poker forum should be able to grasp.

Anyway, that was a much longer response than your post warranted. Hope you enjoyed the rally this weekend, Daddy needs all the support he can get right now.
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Old 05-01-2017, 09:53 PM   #211
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by Aaron W. View Post

There is literally not a single experiment you can do to prove in any sort of absolute way that the universe is older than just a couple seconds old.It's just an assertion that you're making and nothing more.
If you genuinely believe this, I retract my last statement about your being interested in a genuine discussion. And by the way, thank you for going some way towards proving my OP.
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Old 05-01-2017, 10:19 PM   #212
festeringZit
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
Yes, it does.

In the same way that it is difficult for the human mind to grasp astronomical distances, it is also rather difficult to grasp evolutionary time scales. Evolution has been compared to a "whirlwind going through a junkyard and assembling a jumbo jet", but it is actually the exact opposite of that; it is a process whereby very slight alterations in successive generations lead to the build-up of the jumbo jet. It is a precise and deterministic process; there is nothing random about it in the long term, as anyone posting on a poker forum should be able to grasp.

Anyway, that was a much longer response than your post warranted. Hope you enjoyed the rally this weekend, Daddy needs all the support he can get right now.
You can't even define correctly the dogma that you blindly espouse. The irony
that you are talking about anti-intellectualism is comedy gold.
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:02 PM   #213
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
You can't even define correctly the dogma that you blindly espouse. The irony
that you are talking about anti-intellectualism is comedy gold.
Which part did I get wrong, assuming we can also describe, say, 1,000,000 trials of QQ playing AK and winning as a "precise and deterministic process"?
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:39 PM   #214
festeringZit
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
Which part did I get wrong, assuming we can also describe, say, 1,000,000 trials of QQ playing AK and winning as a "precise and deterministic process"?
You have to be joking. Really?

You're going to compare Darwinism to doing trials of QQ vs AK? Wow.
I'm speechless, and you're the one trolling in here incessantly about
religious people being illogical.

Might as well compare Darwinism to flipping a coin then, right?

Is this the **** they teach in public high schools nowadays?
How embarrassing.
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Old 05-01-2017, 11:52 PM   #215
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
You have to be joking. Really?

You're going to compare Darwinism to doing trials of QQ vs AK? Wow.
I'm speechless, and you're the one trolling in here incessantly about
religious people being illogical.

Might as well compare Darwinism to flipping a coin then, right?

Is this the **** they teach in public high schools nowadays?
How embarrassing.
Do you actually have any concept of how evolution works?

Last edited by d2_e4; 05-01-2017 at 11:59 PM. Reason: Name checks out
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:16 AM   #216
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
Your post is a joke, right? You're the biggest troll in here.

As if the alternatives to voting for Trump were any better?

Seriously, are you retarded?
The better alternative for humanity would have been to walk in front of a train. That may also have been the better alternative for you, but I am not fully conversant with your personal situation.
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:32 AM   #217
Aaron W.
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Re: Religion and logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
I would like you to answer one question - "how do you reconcile logic with religion?". Before you do, I would like to propose my definitions of these terms:

- Religion: A belief that we are here as a result of a preternatural creator, who is omnipresent and omniscient. This creator wants us to adhere to the teachings of the ancients, and if we don't, bad things will happen.

- Logic: The syllogistic system that the human race has developed to demonstrate that the combination of a number of precepts and a non-fallacious argument must lead to a true conclusion. Conversely, if the precepts are false, or the argument fallacious, then the conclusion may be false.
There's a lot that you've embedded into your definitions. First, your concept of "religion" falls pretty far outside of the normally accepted definitions. Not all religions are theistic. Not all require omniscience or omnipresence. Not all require adherence to specific behaviors that are described by "the ancients."

Similarly, claiming that logic has humanity as its origins presupposes a lot of information.

I'd be glad to engage you in those things, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
If you genuinely believe this, I retract my last statement about your being interested in a genuine discussion. And by the way, thank you for going some way towards proving my OP.
If you genuinely believe that you can prove statements in some sort of absolute way that the universe is older than a few seconds, please demonstrate this. What you ought to discover if you're thinking things through is that there are a whole lot of assumptions that go into the scientific method (which isn't to say that those assumptions are bad). You should also discover that absolute proofs of statements is beyond what science claims to do.

If you read the statement and think carefully about it, you should find that it's actually not that controversial. You should also read the posts around it to understand the context in which the claim was made.

I'll let you contemplate these things and decide for yourself how you would like to continue, or if you would choose not to continue.
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Old 05-02-2017, 11:50 AM   #218
festeringZit
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
Do you actually have any concept of how evolution works?
Do you?

Please explain how random mutations are deterministic.

Mutations are random
Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." Factors in the environment may influence the rate of mutation but are not generally thought to influence the direction of mutation. For example, exposure to harmful chemicals may increase the mutation rate, but will not cause more mutations that make the organism resistant to those chemicals. In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is unrelated to how useful that mutation would be.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...e/mutations_07
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Old 05-02-2017, 12:20 PM   #219
dynamite22
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Re: Religion and logic

Enter natural and sexual selection
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Old 05-02-2017, 01:42 PM   #220
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
Do you?

Please explain how random mutations are deterministic.

Mutations are random
Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." Factors in the environment may influence the rate of mutation but are not generally thought to influence the direction of mutation. For example, exposure to harmful chemicals may increase the mutation rate, but will not cause more mutations that make the organism resistant to those chemicals. In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is unrelated to how useful that mutation would be.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evolib...e/mutations_07
The mutations themselves are random, the selection of which mutations are propagated to future generations is not random over a sufficiently large number of trials. Much like, you know, hole card distribution is random for all players but the best player ends up with the most money after a sufficiently large number of hands.

Just because a given process contains a random element as an input does not mean that the process necessarily produces a random outcome; there are a lot of examples of natural and mathematical processes/functions which contain some random inputs yet converge to a deterministic/fixed outcome. Evolution is a natural example of such a process.

Again, someone posting on a poker forum should be able to understand this. At the very least, try and educate yourself on topics before you mock others for their lack of understanding thereof.
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Old 05-02-2017, 01:59 PM   #221
BeaucoupFish
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
If you genuinely believe this, I retract my last statement about your being interested in a genuine discussion. And by the way, thank you for going some way towards proving my OP.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Last_Thursdayism
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:08 PM   #222
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by BeaucoupFish View Post
I knew what he was talking about, I just wasn't going to deign it with a response.

ETA: Although I had never heard of "Last Thursdayism" specifically before. Cool link, thanks.

Edit2: Or rationalwiki. Great site! I'm going exploring
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:27 PM   #223
festeringZit
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Re: Religion and logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
I knew what he was talking about, I just wasn't going to deign it with a response.

ETA: Although I had never heard of "Last Thursdayism" specifically before. Cool link, thanks.

Edit2: Or rationalwiki. Great site! I'm going exploring
Actually this concept isn't at all what Aaron is referring to, care to try again?
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Old 05-02-2017, 02:30 PM   #224
d2_e4
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Re: Religion and logic

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Originally Posted by festeringZit View Post
Actually this concept isn't at all what Aaron is referring to, you're just
too obtuse to figure it out.
I notice you are partial to insulting the intelligence of others who are demonstrably more intelligent than you are. That's a sign of insecurity, bro. You should work on that.

I also notice you dropped your evolution argument after you were roundly *****-slapped. Yet, you don't seem to learn. You should work on that too.
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Old 05-02-2017, 03:03 PM   #225
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Re: Religion and logic

Quote:
Originally Posted by d2_e4 View Post
I would like you to answer one question - "how do you reconcile logic with religion?". Before you do, I would like to propose my definitions of these terms:

- Religion: A belief that we are here as a result of a preternatural creator, who is omnipresent and omniscient. This creator wants us to adhere to the teachings of the ancients, and if we don't, bad things will happen.

- Logic: The syllogistic system that the human race has developed to demonstrate that the combination of a number of precepts and a non-fallacious argument must lead to a true conclusion. Conversely, if the precepts are false, or the argument fallacious, then the conclusion may be false.
While I share Aaron's objections to these definitions, especially to the definition of religion, it seems like it's easy to reconcile religion with logic according to these definitions: you just take God as axiomatic. The best part about this is probably that, while it seems like a troll answer, Plantinga has devoted a remarkable amount of effort into developing it :P

More seriously though, the real problem with collapsing the question to those two categories, and I think Aaron pointed this out before when he criticized your use of language like "100% certainty", is that your concept of logic requires some undefined method of ascertaining the truth or falsehood of premises. His entire point earlier on was that science is not just logic, but also epistemology, which you seem to be taking for granted.
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