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Religion, God, and Theology Discussion of God, religion, faith, theology, and spirituality.

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Old 07-06-2017, 01:37 PM   #826
JohnyCrash
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Re: Religion and logic

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Explain the functional difference. How would you convince a gun rights activist that the constitution isn't the be all end all of their argument for gun rights. (You're probably also using a poor representation of religious beliefs in your argument. It seems to me you're arguing more against a caricature built from extreme views rather than the actual religious beliefs that the majority of people hold.)



People have been using all the available devices all the time.
First off gun right activist might fight for their rights even violently, claiming the higher authority of the constitution gives them the right. God supersedes everything in all things with moral authority. People have done and continue to the worst things with that authority.

Yes I am using some extreme views to illustrate the point that religions can go from peaceful to ultra violent depending on who is running the religion. That's what makes them so dangerous to everyone.
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:40 PM   #827
Aaron W.
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Re: Religion and logic

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My perception is that society would find it more acceptable to enter into a discussion if someone said "I believe in ghosts" than it would if they said "I believe in Jesus". You don't think this is true?
What do you mean by "enter into a discussion"? I think most people who believe in Jesus would be thrilled to have a conversation about Jesus.

You also have to be clear in your mind about *how* you present yourself in the conversation. There are ways to make either conversation go poorly by how you communicate your point of view.

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I certainly think it's seen as acceptable to be anti gay rights on the basis of your religion, but it wouldn't be seen as acceptable to be anti gay rights on the basis of "just not liking gay people".
This isn't a good apples-to-apples comparison. One is explicitly arbitrary.
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:44 PM   #828
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Re: Religion and logic

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What do you mean by "enter into a discussion"? I think most people who believe in Jesus would be thrilled to have a conversation about Jesus.

You also have to be clear in your mind about *how* you present yourself in the conversation. There are ways to make either conversation go poorly by how you communicate your point of view.
Following up with "that's interesting, why do you believe that?"

Maybe I'm wrong, but my perception is that would be considered offensive by some to question their beliefs.

I agree on the second point, you've made that very clear in this thread.
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:44 PM   #829
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Re: Religion and logic

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First off gun right activist might fight for their rights even violently, claiming the higher authority of the constitution gives them the right. God supersedes everything in all things with moral authority. People have done and continue to the worst things with that authority.
You really haven't made your point. You're just making a really bad generalization about religious beliefs.

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Yes I am using some extreme views to illustrate the point that religions can go from peaceful to ultra violent depending on who is running the religion. That's what makes them so dangerous to everyone.
But you haven't made any argument that this type of thing is a uniquely religious thing. By this argumentation, we should be anti-government because governments like 1940s Germany or present-day North Korea are dangerous governments.
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:45 PM   #830
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Re: Religion and logic

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What do you mean by "enter into a discussion"? I think most people who believe

This isn't a good apples-to-apples comparison. One is explicitly arbitrary.
They both seem pretty arbitrary to me. I was going to go with "it's not natural", does that work better?
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:45 PM   #831
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Re: Religion and logic

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Following up with "that's interesting, why do you believe that?"
I can't imagine anyone would find that objectionable.
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Old 07-06-2017, 01:47 PM   #832
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Re: Religion and logic

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They both seem pretty arbitrary to me.
In your view, what is a non-arbitrary position?

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I was going to go with "it's not natural", does that work better?
Not really. But I think you should clarify the previous question before moving forward.
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:00 PM   #833
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Re: Religion and logic

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You really haven't made your point. You're just making a really bad generalization about religious beliefs.



But you haven't made any argument that this type of thing is a uniquely religious thing. By this argumentation, we should be anti-government because governments like 1940s Germany or present-day North Korea are dangerous governments.
Nazi Germany was about as close to religious fanaticism as it gets. At the time Hitler replaced God as the highest moral authority in Germany and we all know how that turned out. Same thing with Russia with Stalin. I already conceded that religious people are not the only ones susceptible to bad ideas and cultures.

My point is that religion can turn otherwise normal gentle people into monsters and can pit entire societies against each other. It seems very unlikely that world can have all these different Gods and live in peace. Do you concede that religions past and present are responsible for terrible evils?
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:15 PM   #834
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Re: Religion and logic

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Nazi Germany was about as close to religious fanaticism as it gets. At the time Hitler replaced God as the highest moral authority in Germany and we all know how that turned out. Same thing with Russia with Stalin. I already conceded that religious people are not the only ones susceptible to bad ideas and cultures.
But Nazi Germany isn't actually a religion. All you're doing here is word play. You call it "religious fanaticism" (even though it's not actually a religion) but I could just as well call it "nationalistic fanaticism."

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My point is that religion can turn otherwise normal gentle people into monsters and can pit entire societies against each other.
Again, this isn't specific to religion. Societies have been pitted against each other for economic reasons, or just because they don't like each other.

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It seems very unlikely that world can have all these different Gods and live in peace.
Why?

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Do you concede that religions past and present are responsible for terrible evils?
Sure. I don't claim that there have been no negatives associated with religion.
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:31 PM   #835
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Re: Religion and logic

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In your view, what is a non-arbitrary position?



Not really. But I think you should clarify the previous question before moving forward.
I don't know, I can't think of a justifiable reason for being anti gay rights to compare to the religious argument, that's the point.
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:37 PM   #836
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Re: Religion and logic

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Do you concede that religions past and present are responsible for terrible evils?
Obviously, terrible evils have happened in the name of many religions...
but what about science?
Nuclear bombs? Machine guns? Tanks? Fighter jets?
All weapons of mass destruction have been invented by scientists.

(Not saying that science is inherently bad -- just that it isn't innocent).

And then we have communism which is strictly atheistic.
Being atheists didn't stop communists from executing millions of people.

Seems atheism is the answer either..
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:39 PM   #837
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Re: Religion and logic

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I don't know, I can't think of a justifiable reason for being anti gay rights to compare to the religious argument, that's the point.
I mean in general, what makes a position non-arbitrary? This can be either for or against.

What you'll probably discover is that at a certain level, everything is arbitrary. And the basis of whatever belief you have ultimately ends up being like a religious belief.

How religious people hold their core beliefs isn't actually that different from how most others hold their core beliefs. Theirs is just more exposed.
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Old 07-06-2017, 02:42 PM   #838
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Re: Religion and logic

Sorry I got distracted, I will get back to you later.
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Old 07-16-2017, 07:45 AM   #839
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Re: Religion and logic

This thread has all my favourite RGT things.
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Old 07-16-2017, 10:54 AM   #840
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Re: Religion and logic

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This thread has all my favourite RGT things.
! Missed having you around!
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Old 07-16-2017, 02:23 PM   #841
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Re: Religion and logic

+1
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Old 07-16-2017, 10:02 PM   #842
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Re: Religion and logic

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! Missed having you around!
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+1
Thanks you two.

I am probably just flying in and out - I don't really see the point in posting here anymore. The forum isn't really the place to challenge to one's atheist views.
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