I would say "that you are in a sea of nihilism even if you don't know it" and therefore in the same boat as me anyway. I include everyone in this group. Just as I include everyone in the group of being "human." In other words you are part of my group merely to the fact you are alive. But from that starting point, most people do their best to distract themselves from this fact. They wander the earth to escape that feeling. Do all manner of things, pursue goals endlessly to achieve temporarily satisfaction. And my claim is they won't. Its a mask.

In other words, you have a mostly incomprehensible philosophy in which you simply make statements and try to sound like you're being profound? I've heard better from stoned college students than this.

If it is incomprehensible (and I won't deny it could be. I could be wrong. And will take any new information into consideration), so if it is incomprehensible it is to the degree that I find life incomprehensible.

I really hope you around the age of a college student. That would be forgivable. If you're in your 30s or older and you're still at this stage of your development, I'd feel kind of bad for you.

Thanks Aaron. Not sure how to respond to that TBH.

One possible response is to try to think about your perspective more carefully to come to a point where you have a sensible statement of nihilism (a description, etc.) and not just a blanket assertion. ("Can you be specific about your concept of "nihilism"? What claims are you accepting or rejecting when you talk about "the problem of nihilism"?)

Another response is to accept the meaningless of everything and be thrilled with the fact that you've created well-formed sentences even though you think that everything is ultimately incomprehensible.

You asked me to be specific then go on to describe it and give advice to merely accept it.

How many times have you made threads like this before?

Thats different from what you initially said. But if thats what you meant, and you are clarifying now, then fine

Yes, if you really really focus on your desires and the fact you can’t have them you will become extremely uncomfortable and possibly enraged beyond anything you’ve felt before. And you are indeed likely to find a lust for power, revenge, and justice there in that anger. But that is not because these things are your essential desires or will. If you had everything you wanted would you still have those desires? If you had all of your freedom and a nice happy life?

At first glance it seems these feelings of anger and frustration are aroused by your subconscious programming telling you that in order to attain external things and achieve happiness you must act in a dominant fashion. Monkey take my banana I kill Monkey and get all bananas! These are built in mechanisms which trigger a fight response when we feel our back is against the wall. People can conflate these prompting mechanisms with desires. Power shifts from a means to defend yourself and achieve goals to becoming a reward in and of itself.

Fighting against those urges is not the reason for the extreme discomfort. Those urges cause big problems so fighting them off can be a good thing. The problems might not manifest immediately but over time they will show. From a purely functional perspective, acting on those urges causes an increased risk of having a negative experience. It’s not hard to see how interacting with others in a hostile fashion creates a near certainty of trouble for yourself. Beyond the risk of backlash, dominant and extortive behavior actually slows down progress toward making our lives easier and more enjoyable. And as you said, they can cause problems of conscience.

From a more psychic perspective there is a dichotomy between those types of urges and many of our other desires. Hence the conscience problems. We are empathetic. We want to socialize and have a good time. We want connection free from conflict. We want an enjoyable shared experience with no strain on our psyche. Our true Will is not domination or these other hurtful things. Our true Will is love and freedom.

Is it the system we have built on top the template of life or life itself that stands in such stark contrast with our spirit of love and freedom? Perhaps we feel restricted because we are so far disconnected from the way we were meant to live. It’s hard to say. Maybe the current system set into motion by us has stifled our freedom and creativity so much that we have begun to look at life as a whole as restrictive.

In my previous post I touched on the imposition of the consequential nature of this world. This could be the real seat of the extreme discomfort you feel when you focus in “from head to body”. It is the realization that you are not free. You are slave to consequence. You are a prisoner of the body. You’re restricted by time, logic, and all of the physical laws. You’re forced, by extortion, to work and compete. There is a disconnect between the imagination and the reality.

The modern idea of the hero’s journey toward status, admiration, prestige etc. is a trap. Depending on intention it could be originating from the same urge for domination and the other desires you’ve labeled in the first category of Will. Or it could be coming from what I consider to be a part of our true Will- the need to feel loved. Either way it is caused by confusion.

While vying for status is not as harmful as a no-holds-barred attack for revenge and domination it still causes a lot of problems for society. Status is relative. In order to achieve greater status you must be above another. This is especially damaging in an open system where ranking impacts the overall life experience of everyone. That is our current system. It is mostly money which determines status and money determines options along with quality of life. We see this now the disparity of wealth. It is a huge problem.

The quest for status also has a deleterious effect on the psyche of that individual. It is a “soft” form of domination often over unwilling parties. Your conscience might not differentiate between your categories of desires. It’s also a perpetual cycle of suffering. You will not feel loved unless you have x. The old “keeping up with the Joneses”. You’re like a donkey chasing a carrot on a stick. You’re slave to the worldly urges deceiving you.

Rebel and sit out.

Citamgine-

It’s about integration rather than suppression or enslavement to our lowest desires. The individual story mirrors the evolution of our culture, which is the evolution of the conscience and the Will. Or at another level, the evolution and story of consciousness.

Survival/reproduction: our fundamental desires
Tribalism/group conformity: organisms that did not form groups did not survive
Power: groups that avoided conflict for resources did not survive
Status/ethics: groups that did not form hierarchy and allow ethics to emerge could not function as efficiently as those that did
Religion: tribes that could not integrate other cultures under a common religious “super tribe” became outnumbered
Liberalism/secularism/individualism: Religious groups that do not allow openness of ideas, liberal values, and individual sovereignty get outcompeted by those that do

This evolved story is inherited by each of us, but we have to start from the beginning. Acting out this story is a huge part of morality. When we are babies, it’s all about survival, then we get socialized and conform to the larger group, etc.

As I have touched on previously, it’s important for the sake of stability that we incorporate ethics (#4) before we act on our power/domination desires (#3). However, we have to realize that we have gone out of order, are therefore suppressing the Will, and our individual story will get stuck as a result.

The desire for status is just a stage that has to be integrated and is not the end goal. I can agree with you that ‘Love’ is the final destination, but we have to go through each chapter of the story. Trying to skip steps often leads to bad outcomes and delusions.

There is a reason why so many who want to use only ethics to bring about “paradise” have failed. Morality is what leads us to where we need to/want to go and ethics is only one aspect of morality. The power stage and the ethics stage are oppositional, so the people who are under the illusion that ethics alone is enough are going to react negatively when I talk about the need to stop suppressing the Will. That’s fine though.

As I explained in my previous post, I think the will to power is the conflation of means and ends. It is confusing the prompting mechanism for achievement of goals with the goal itself. This is pathological. If we did not have a competitive system in place we would not require that mechanism for achievement. We’d see less of a “need” for it. Under the system you are advocating we play for we are like bitches thrown into an arena forced to fight it out. I’d rather not be a bicth.

Thinking in terms of constructing systems, or top down approaches, is not going to work. Our human nature, which has been formed over hundreds of millions of years, is too resistant to that. The idea that we can create a new game that eliminates aspects of our nature that we don’t like is a fool’s errand. That is what becomes pathological.

Only when we rid ourselves of idealistic fantasies and begin to open up to our nature, can we find what we need. Your distorted caricature of that path is simply a consequence of your anxiety. Also, morality does not care about your preferences. Time to grow up.

That part of the sentence was joined with an "and" followed by another clause that you may have missed.

Ultimately, it's your life. Do with it what you want. Think whatever you want. If you want to content yourself with plainly sophomoric thinking, go for it.

The notion that desire for power is a trait selected through evolution is conjecture. I think one could make a more compelling case for cooperative traits being primary to survival. That is an interesting topic on its own. I was giving it a lot of thought some time back and stumbled upon this article. It’s pretty cool. You might want to check it out.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...nto-question1/

Even if I were to grant that your assertion on power and evolution is accurate, we still run into some problems with your argument. Our ideas are not as far apart as it appears you think they are. You too are advocating for a “system or a top down approach” in which we bridle our nature. Where we employ ethics in conjunction with our lust for power to play a game for status. If i’m advocating for any system it is simply the next step in the evolution of that same system- Cut out the power games that impact innocent people’s lives and compartmentalize to games of voluntary participation.

Dismissing ideas that transcend our evolutionary baggage for the betterment of society and writing them off as childish seems uncharacteristic of you. I hope you can put aside your bias and think critically on this one.

I was hesitant to write this post, because it feels more like a glorified self-help piece than anything else. Still, posts about nihilism or meaningless existence crops up regularly on this forum and I have never felt that existence is meaningless. So I figure maybe I can contribute / help with this?

(That isn't to say that I haven't been down or felt like my actions don't matter, but that sensation has never extended to existence. Rather I have always had a burning feeling that life is very important).

I don't know, people are different. What works for me might not be for others at all. Still, it can't hurt. That said, forgive the self-help tone of the post. My intention is not to be arrogant or assume I somehow have the answers for others.


1.) I specifically go about learning something new every day. This is a conscious decision I took when I was young. I would read or learn something new every day for the rest of my life. Our species didn't discover fire only by accident, we crave knowledge.
2.) I debate pretty much anything anywhere, if I hear something objectionable I protest. Probably not in a funeral, but I set the bar very high for letting social etiquette trump debate. It's important to be heard and it is important to challenge your views.
3.) I have several creative hobbies. Making music, writing, playing instruments. I think our species has a very strong need to create, figure things out and find solutions, and that is one venue that helps with that.
4.) I see fiction and art as more important for carrying meaning than non-fiction. Consuming these things and learning about them is subsequently important.
5.) We have one body and in my view our mind is part of that, not just hovering near it. I'm not a gym-addict by any means, but I keep active.
6.) Our society has few venues to let out more tribal and selfish instincts. Competition is one of the few that is left. I think finding something you can compete in is important. I prefer physical competition, but to each his own.
7.) One of the most important aspects of our existence sense-wise is food and drink. Never let that that become routine or just something to satisfy base needs.

And yes, I realize this sounds like it takes a lot of time and that you need a schedule. But a) It isn't really about time. b) Schedules and me have never mixed well.

We should always discourage corruption and power dynamics and encourage ethics. I thought you were implying that we should discourage competition and hierarchy, which I would strongly disagree with.

I have an extremely optimistic view on the potential of man, but a more pessimistic view on our present capabilities based on our current psychological constitution. We don't come into the world as anything close to finished products. We need the hierarchies to help develop our Will, not for power or status, but in order to reach our potential. As a result, society will improve. We have basically reached the limit of relying on culture to lead in the quest for progress. We need individual development now.

In order to sustain our baseline (average) quality of life, our lifestyle has to be meaningful enough to counter the overall amount of suffering we endure. As long as the balance is sufficient, we will not change.

The problem is that the part of us that makes that assessment is heavily influenced by our pain avoidance mechanism. How that works is that our defense mechanism blinds our cost/benefit assessor from much of our suffering.

So the equation looks like this:
Meaning produced from current lifestyle - perceived overall suffering = sufficient balance

When the reality should be:
Meaning produced from current lifestyle - actual overall suffering = insufficient balance

We are under the illusion of equation 1, while actually living out the experience of equation 2. The result is that we suffer at an incrementally unbearable level, but since it is almost always hidden from our assessor, we are either too late to change or never change.

When we are within the midst of nihilism, our perspective is temporarily separated from our pain avoidance mechanism. We are able to see clearly an accurate cost/benefit assessment. It’s only for a short time though. Do we risk the vulnerability of holding onto that truth for dear life or do we allow ourselves to be taken back into the lie?

*I know I’m going on and on, but I’ll lose these thoughts if I don’t type them out. I can stop posting them here if I’m hijacking the thread too much. Either way, I think I’m probably done.

Now I’m confused about what you’re contending. Let’s recap so we’re on the same page.

I thought you were arguing in favor of chasing status as a remedy for suffering. I interpreted your position to be that nihilism is the result of suffering which is caused by the denial of one’s will to power. And instead of acting in a Genghis Khan like fashion, it’s best to temper those urges by applying ethics in the quest for status.

I disagreed with your premise. I think love and freedom are at the core of our desires, not lust for power; I think it is pathological. We’re coerced into competition. I thought it would be helpful for OP and anyone who’d listen to explain why chasing status is harmful for both the individual and society.

You then claim that desire for power has been selected for through evolution both culturally and individually and must be integrated. I still disagree with that, but grant it as an axiom for argument sake. In that case, by extension of those same ethics, we should restrict the quest for status to voluntary games like sports, chess, etc. You don’t seem to have a problem with that.

Is that accurate so far?

Would you agree that our current system does not allow for a reasonable quality of life for those who do not wish to compete? Do people of low status suffer directly as a result of something other than a failure to realize their will to power?

So once you’re able to realize that you’re “out of balance” you then need to add to the meaning and/or ameliorate suffering. I would think that a person holding a nihilistic view would find it very hard to add to the meaning considering that by definition they don’t think there is any meaning to begin with. Is your use of the word “meaning” here interchangeable with “enjoyment”?

I am probably "****ting on my own doorstep" here, but dont think even people who claim to be nihilists, or believe that nihilism is true, actually act as if its true, and as if nothing has any meaning. I mean, they still eat, they still do things that they want to ( which is a kind of meaning). I guess the ones who really do believe it, and act as if its true, will kill themselves pretty much straight away , or sit and do nothing until they die.

also, I disgree about the definition of suffering.

Suffering is the difference between your perception and beliefs about reality, and actual reality.

Yeah what I consider meaning (the expanding, sustainable feeling of fulfillment that attracts us) everyone experiences, or has experienced, at some level. For me, the level of experience and embodiment should be elevated over (is more “true” than) the level of thought/belief, so I see this way of defining meaning as the most valid.

When people are experiencing nihilism and they express the idea that life has no meaning, they are expressing their underlying feelings of frustration and exasperation, and their desire to quit the game. That and what I described in my last post.

I agree, the statement which I've bolded is true in some cases. I think we disagree on the cause of suffering and the means of solution for the cause that you postulate. If you're willing, I'd like to tease it all apart. I need some clarification first. Is the summary in post #44 accurate?

Also, what game?

No I have a major problem with this statement. How are you planning on “restricting the quest for status”? It seems to me like you are having difficulty getting outside of your social constructionist POV.

Do you realize that when we enter a room with a bunch of other human beings that we don’t know, there is a mechanism that is automatically sizing up the room and determining our status among the group based on countless pieces of information? How do you plan on regulating that? How do you plan on restricting the quest for status as it relates to its role in female sexual selection? Are you going to restrict the freedom of women to mate select because that’s the only way to prevent them from selecting for status and/or selecting for traits that correlate to gaining status.

I’m not really interested in continuing this discussion tbh. I’m pretty familiar with how it would go from here. You seem to be an idealist that wants to impose your view of ‘how it should be’ on reality through radical systemic change. I’ve been there. Reality rejects our naive, idealistic solutions and forces us to be more pragmatic.

Edit: I need to clarify. I am idealistic and don’t want to discourage it. It’s just that pragmatism needs to be stacked on top of it.

We already do this. Moving forward the clear path is through redistribution of wealth.

I’m not sure what you mean by this. Are you saying that I should not believe that the meaning of certain things are ascribed by humans?

If you mean that I’m having trouble seeing some facts/meaning as existing outside of the realm of social convention then you are mistaken. Please recall that I did not agree with your premise. I linked an article focusing on attempts to explain the pertinent natural phenomena.

If you mean that I’m only able to see solutions by way of constructing social systems then you are mistaken. You’ve boxed us in by attempting to solve what you claim to be the root of the problem by gaming a socially constructed system. You’re advice to pursue status is doing just that.

I think the current system is partially responsible for perpetuating the “suffering at a incrementally unbearable level” which you’ve described in previous posts. IF we MUST employ a system it should be better at providing an enjoyable experience for all.

This is a borderline false dilemma.

I agree that there are unconscious mechanisms which can not be regulated and we wouldn’t want to regulate them. Why would we? Those mechanisms have no direct effect on quality of life other than the feeling of status alone.

The selection of mates for gaining status is not ubiquitous amongst females. Believe it or not, some will actually like you for you, not the status you bring them. But females who wish to select for status would still be free to do so. They could pursue the top athletes or strategists or whoever has achieved status through compartmentalized games.

Pretty much the entirety of society is an imposition of how it should be. And it’s very poorly constructed. OP already pointed that out. I’ve already pointed it out again. You insist on carrying on as if the current system is natural. As if it hasn’t taken systemic change to get where we are today.

I’m sorry this seems so difficult for you. Most of our discussion so far has been a pragmatic band aid approach to fixing global psychopathology. Perhaps there’s something deeper than that. We’ve barely scratched the surface here.