Hard to imagine a gentleman and scholar like FellaGaga quoting somebody out of context.

I think it is quite true that religious beliefs are, for most believers, inextricably intertwined with their identities and something they invest meaning into.

But there's two problems with relying too much on this.

First, religions really do make factual claims. Obviously, they make factual claims about silly issues that have little effect on modern life, such as whether or not Jonah really lived inside a whale or how old Methuselah really was.

But they also make factual claims that do matter. A lot. Claims such as about the age of the earth. Or whether God granted the land of Israel to Jews. Or whether women are subordinate to men. Or whether homosexuality is harmful.

If the community of religious believers were nothing more than a bunch of people who invested meaning in a bunch of stories which were intertwined with their identity, that would be relatively harmless. But there are women who have had their clitorises cut off because of religion. There are gays who have been stoned to death because of religion. There are schoolchildren who have not been given a basic understanding of human biology because of religion.

The second problem is a significant number of believers don't simply want to identify with a religion. They want power. They want to compel belief, using either the formal sanction of laws or the informal sanctions of ostracization and community pressure. Some even want to kill infidels, and many want to discriminate against them.

And when religion becomes an instrument of power rather than simply a personal identity, the fact that it makes a lot of false claims becomes a very, very big problem.

Insecurity, fear, closemindedness, weakness all cling to dogma and a narrow, rigid, unchangeable set of beliefs. It's the life blood of religion. All religions. On the other hand, opening one's mind to the actual world and the history of it is a non-religious stance that does not sacrifice mind and consciousness to belief (just whatever belief happened to get passed down to me at one time or another).

These first three commandments ... Me, me, me ... I'm the god you need to be worshipping ... is this really necessary if you are almighty god? Or is it more like someone trying to establish a religion and overrule the other phony gods? Which is it? At odds of thousands to one, it seems to be the second.

So, dude on call-in show tonight relates that he gave his life to Jesus at age four. Hello. Anybody? Is there anything wrong with this picture? Is it to be taken seriously that the child resolved this issue and committed to Christ at this age? Or is this belief of his exactly the same as all the other fanciful beliefs indicative of that age? Did Jesus preach to four year olds to convert them? Or is this modern style of indoctrination just totally bogus?? What's the answer to that?

There are thousands of different religions, sects, denominations claiming they have the inside track on god and ultimate truth, that they and their group are the Truth Club. Is there anything illuminating about this state of affairs??

Is there anything wrong with this picture, that is, with taking it seriously? Yes there is something wrong, and totally uncritical, about taking this game seriously. No it isn't this club that is the Truth Club, no it's not that one, no it's not that one ... It's none of them. Any study of religion with critical thinking and skepticism applied comes to that conclusion.

Everyone knows that all the "other" sects are BS. And those others know that yours is BS. But no skepticism allowed concerning one's own sect. "I" am always in the true god club, and others aren't. For thousands of years in tens of thousands of manifestations.

Really???? Is that realistic or just fanciful, magical thinking?

Is this "I'm in the one true religion club" just a religious game that is false everywhere it is played? Or after 10,000 such games, did someone come up with the "real" one?

Since discussion in this thread seems finished, I'm locking it up.