What do you mean original videos? I only went to one link and it had a dozen or so videos, about 10 minutes long each. I watched about 100 minutes.

It's not really that deep but it's worth it and a very good discussion for 2.2 IMO.

untrue, even the earliest churches lacked unity.

actually it is, otherwise it wouldnt require a few years of study. Regardless, I have met thousands of people in my life that have studied the bible for many years. Each person has their own unique interpretation ... sure 99% of them may agree about 1-2 basics of the Christian theology, but thats about it.

and i have traveled the world and find this to be untrue. Perhaps its your definition of "major issues". What do you consider "major issues" in Christianity?

I didn't bash the video guy IMO; I said he was humble, honest and I loved the series. Just because I see his views as terribly off doesn't mean anything as to a personal thought towards him--you bashed me in truth, by calling me arrogant when you can't know the heart, but I didn't judge any of his motives at all; only his doctrinal beliefs and the merit (or lack thereof) of his arguments.

I believe I said more than that. I also like typing and this whole forum knows I mostly post tl;dr no matter what the topic.

Funny why? People can hate with knowledge or without, equally.

im just saying, why write a dissertation dissecting a person's belief whom you have never met, and all you know about him is a 10 minute summary of his religious beliefs (the other 90 minutes dont really cover his past). Is it to brag about how well you understand "real" Christianity?

wont disagree there, but the heart of your tl;dr post is that his understanding of Christianity was wrong. I dont think people need a step by step explanation of why you think it was wrong.

what does hate have to with this?

Quite judgmental for someone who doesn't have a basis for morally judging anything. I'm interested, in your worldview, how can you prove I need to be consistent with whatever Jesus would want. For instance if I claim Jesus and then do everything against Him, how would you prove I shouldn't do this? You only have opinion, no? I disagree with your opinion. You have no basis to judge me even if I'm a hypocrite.

I've been trying to change that avatar for a long time (b/c it's an old fight) but I'm terrible with fitting images into an avatar size.

Interestingly, over the last year or so I've almost watched no MMA because it hit me that it's two people bashing each other and it seems detrimental. Formerly I justified it as sport, and I was raised in a big sport family, and there is a lot of skill and hard work going into it--but now I see more that it's bad for them physically and so I don't like it nearly as much. Probably in another year I wont watch it ever again? Who knows. But God sanctifies those who are His, and we grow over time.

your thinking skills are top notch sir.

There are countless ways to study a subject in depth and how to weigh the arguments. Who's to say you weren't heavily skewed against the accurate, true way? Please let me know which scholars you read-I doubt they gave a balanced view. And your presuppositions weigh heavily in the mix of what you conclude. Just because someone studies x doesn't mean the do so rightly. For instance I have studied evolution but disbelieve; surely you wouldn't say studying it alone brought me to knowledge-in your opinion it compounded ignorance. I can say, "Since I studied evolution and found it false, I think the more people who study it will also find it false", but this really depends on my presuppositions and my approach, my philosophy, evaluation skills, analytical ability, and more.

Can't respond to the whole thing yet because it feels like this would be epic and I don't currently have time for full and lengthy discussion. But this section...

is sort of demonstrating exactly what I was saying. A little bit of me wonders if you did it to be funny (but mostly I assume you're serious) Because, as I'm sure you realize, this is what nearly every Christian says. Every Christian refers to the Bible when explaining why they're right and all the other 'so called' Christians have got it wrong.

I'm going to say that there's greater then a 95% chance that Pletho would say you have Christianity all wrong. And he'll use the Bible as the basis. So would _______________. Each one arrogantly claims that the other is wrong referring to the same text. As Pletho would likely say, "Megenoita hasn't learned to clearly divide the word."

Meanwhile, the rest of us:

They all base their beliefs on the Bible

thanks. This answered my question. I wish I had more time but now is no good...

Please detail how the earliest churches lacked unity-documented. I think we'll find they have tremendous unity vs. disunity. Of course you can't name me any belief system in any realm that doesn't "lack unity" in some sense.

I really believe your view of "each has unique interp." is skewed by your worldview, so there's no point in addressing it unless we address your wv. Even if there was no unity, that can simply mean people are fallible and you can't discern who of them was right (if any) because you haven't done the work of spending years formally studying.

Major issues are basically the gospel, the Bible as God's word. Within gospel the deity of Jesus Christ, literal Resurrection. Within Bible as God's word, literally true. Sorry but I'm about done typing for today so keeping it short.

Thanks!

exactly, who is to say?

oh, so you are to say. okay. well i read C.S. Lewis, Jan Hettinga, Kant. lewis was my favorite, but i read many others as well that i cant recall at the moment. all of this should be irrelevant though. what if i studied no scholars whatsoever? most christians throughout history have had little to no access to scholarly work. we're lucky that we do.

true. but i didnt believe because i studied. i studied because i believed. my faith came first...and i studied to deepen my faith and understanding.

true. this is purely a matter of opinion.

Actually, that's not true, Kurto. Most people who call themselves Christians do not hold that the Bible is infallible, inerrant, the word of God and should be interpreted as such. Most believe in concepts taught therein but do not accept it wholly. For instance millions reject the Genesis account, many reject Jonah and the whale, Obama says he's a Christian but homosexuality is "obscure" and archaic, believing the Bible should be interpreted according to current history and not original intent or as having authority over us now (even though it claims this). These people-most who call themselves Christians-believe the Bible is inspired and God's word in the sense of conveying truth, but it's not literally THE Truth, infallible, completely accurate and trustworthy, the greatest authority on earth. That is certainly a minority. And among those who hold the Bible as highly as I claim, I've found tremendous unity in all my years of encountering people, in major and minor doctrines.

Maybe you are right that simply saying "biblical Christianity" is insufficient because biblical can mean any part of taking the Bible into your view. But what I mean by that term-the highest view of the Scriptures that there is-is a very small %, practically more than anything else.

Oh, and let me give you an example. The guy in the youtube series-he never read the Bible until college, he was never taught doctrine at all from the Bible-he didn't know the gospel was anything more than a feeling, he didn't know it could be studied academically, he was never taught systematic theology, church fathers, puritans, church history, I mean, nothing from the Bible. His cult may have said "the bible is great, the bible is the word of God, we're biblical christians", but practically speaking, he didn't touch the thing. He got his morality from feelings and a boy scout code of ethics for crying out loud. The bible is irrelevant except in conveying some conceptual truths. This is what I mean when I say very few look at the Bible as the authority for their lives, because if they did, they'd surely study it with all their heart, and this almost never happens (hence a billion opinions).

It is taught in colleges how to study any written work objectively. I think ITT I've given some aspects to hermeneutics.


C.S. Lewis himself warned in his books that he was a layman, not a theologeon. He's a practical speaker, an apologist-a great apologist-on the layman level (by his own words). He's not a scholar.

Jan Hettinga is a pastor, not a scholar. His D. Min is in "Transformational Leadership", no?

Kant is good for philosophy, not for biblical issues.

Did you read any biblical scholars, ever? Did you study the Bible under any person or institution?

I just wonder what faith you were trying to deepen. I'd probably come out believing as you if I were limited to your sources. I'd just say, read more. Read the Puritans, read John Owen, read Calvin, Luther, read Bahnsen, John Frame, Cornelius Van Til, if you read Kant you NEED to read Alvin Plantinga, if you read C.S. Lewis you need to read D.A. Carson, read Ravi Zacharias, read John MacArthur, read Spurgeon, read the Reformers...I'd just say keep reading.

Read the Ryrie Study Bible along with MacArthur's along with the Reformed Study Bible for 2-3 years.

People on 2.2 hate reading long posts-but I don't think they hate reading in general. It's just that we can't all read everything, and I understand that. But I do feel the sources we choose are important and factor in heavily to our conclusions. We shouldn't assume because we've studied a few writers we grasp a topic. It should be far more exhaustive and that's part of my problem with a lot of arguments on 2.2--it seems they're premature. I'm sure I'm guilty of the same in ways as well.

I'm off; done my typing for the day. If anyone wants to talk more, PM me please.

1/3 of all Christians believe the Bible is the literal word of God. (just to clarify, this according to a 2007 poll)

I do find it amusing that, as you say, the guy in the video never read the Bible. Not even in church? No Bible study classes? I find that odd today.

But I think you're still missing my point about studying the Bible.

Pletho, again, is clearly knowledgeable about scripture. I think its clear from his posts that he's studied 'with all his heart' for years and years, and he most assuredly thinks you're wrong (unless you agree with him that the Trinity is misunderstood and that Jesus is not God) about Christianity. And I'm quite certain if you two duked it out it he would be able to defend himself with scripture, as I assume could you, and you would both never come to terms.

You are no doubt wrong if you think that studying the Bible with all your heart leads to the same (and correct) understanding. There's no shortage of evidence that studying the Bible leads to one truth.

so ill take that as a yes. a person must read biblical scholars or he is doomed to atheism or false belief?

The guy's only claim in the video was that he hadn't read the Bible cover-to-cover until recently. He had obviously read parts of it growing up.

You can't be a real Christian unless you've studied Chronicles-

stuff like this makes me wonder how well Meg even listened to the videos vs watching them with a pre-conceived notion that this person just didn't understand Christianity "correctly".

You can keep saying this but the biblical Gods has ordered rape. More then once.

If this is true, I don’t understand why there is so little agreement among the Christians on this forum.
There are quite a few intelligent and well educated Christians here, who have studied the bible extensively, and yet you agree on almost nothing.
You and Jibninjas both claim that reading the bible with an open mind can only result in one interpretation of it, and yet your beliefs are about as different as can be. Don’t you find this odd in the slightest?
If agreement is the logical result of reading the bible, why is there so little of it among avid bible readers?

I propose that you propose an addition to the Bible so people can correctly interpret the meaning of it.

God clearly didn't set it up properly...Meganoita to the rescue!!!

The reason God cannot command murder, rape and child molestation is because they become transformed into things like "killing", "sexual companionship", and "priests getting friendly" when God does command them. It has nothing to do with God's character.