For The Rationalists - Page 8 - Religion, God, and Theology

Yes that is the point of Pascal’s wager, namely that belief Carrie’s infinite reward and wrongly non believing Carrie’s infinite punishment. It is a BS argument for all the reasons I gave, namely that it is impossible to actually believe in ALL of the possible religions that promise infinite reward to believers and infinite punishment to nonbelievers. Your supposed Christian catchphrase applies equally well to many other belief systems, so if it is truly convincing to you, you should also adopt Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, etc. as well as Christianity, just to be on the safe side.

Obviously that leads to the other part of my argument. You would not actually believe any of those other religions any more than I would all of a sudden start believing in Christianity were I to find your “eternity is a long time to be wrong” catchphrase to be at all convincing. We would both just be feigning belief to avoid eternal punishment. I suspect an all-powerful deity would not be fooled by our insincere professions of belief.

Have you actually read the relevant sections in Pascal's Pensees? "The Wager" is but one part of a much larger apologetic endeavour. Pascal himself would most assuredly agree with you that The Wager is weak as a stand-alone argument. But, he never intended it to be a stand-alone argument.

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10-01-2022 , 12:58 AM

#178

Chuckychess

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

... when a stupid slogan/cliche/jingle takes over somebody's agency, metaphysics, view of reality, and critical thinking.

You wanna know what I say to that, buddy?

ETERNITY IS WAY TOO LONG TO BE WRONG!

Not that I know that it irritates you, I'm thinking of making that quote my signature.

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10-01-2022 , 10:31 AM

#179

stremba70

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckychess

Yet you seem to think “Eternity is a long time to be wrong” is somehow convincing as a stand alone argument— basically a paraphrase of Pascals Wager

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10-01-2022 , 01:01 PM

#180

Chuckychess

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Originally Posted by stremba70

Yet you seem to think “Eternity is a long time to be wrong” is somehow convincing as a stand alone argument— basically a paraphrase of Pascals Wager

1. I have never claimed that "Eternity is way too long to be wrong" is an argument for theism. Since it has no premises, it's technically not even an argument. I use it as an easily-remembered catchphrase to encourage folks to at least think about issues that can have eternal consequences.

2. That you consider my favourite catchphrase "basically a paraphrase of Pascals[sic] Wager" proves that you don't even know what The Wager is.

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10-01-2022 , 01:13 PM

#181

Chuckychess

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Quote:

Originally Posted by stremba70

Yet you seem to think “Eternity is a long time to be wrong” is somehow convincing as a stand alone argument— basically a paraphrase of Pascals Wager

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_wager

An excerpt:

The wager uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, §233):

God is, or God is not. Reason cannot decide between the two alternatives

A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up

You must wager (it is not optional)

Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing
Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.

But some cannot believe. They should then 'at least learn your inability to believe...' and 'Endeavour then to convince' themselves.

Pascal asks the reader to analyze humankind's position, where our actions can be enormously consequential, but our understanding of those consequences is flawed. While we can discern a great deal through reason, we are ultimately forced to gamble. Pascal cites a number of distinct areas of uncertainty in human life:

Category Quotation(s)

Uncertainty in all: This is what I see, and what troubles me. I look on all sides, and everywhere I see nothing but obscurity. Nature offers me nothing that is not a matter of doubt and disquiet.[6]

Uncertainty in man's purpose: For after all what is man in nature? A nothing in relation to infinity, all in relation to nothing, a central point between nothing and all and infinitely far from understanding either.[7]

Uncertainty in reason: There is nothing so conformable to reason as this disavowal of reason.[8]

Uncertainty in science: There is no doubt that natural laws exist, but once this fine reason of ours was corrupted, it corrupted everything.[9]

Uncertainty in religion: If I saw no signs of a divinity, I would fix myself in denial. If I saw everywhere the marks of a Creator, I would repose peacefully in faith. But seeing too much to deny Him, and too little to assure me, I am in a pitiful state, and I would wish a hundred times that if a god sustains nature it would reveal Him without ambiguity.[6]

We understand nothing of the works of God unless we take it as a principle that He wishes to blind some and to enlighten others.[10]

Uncertainty in skepticism: It is not certain that everything is uncertain.[11]

Pascal describes humanity as a finite being trapped within an incomprehensible infinity, briefly thrust into being from non-being, with no explanation of "Why?" or "What?" or "How?" On Pascal's view, human finitude constrains our ability to achieve truth reliably.

Given that reason alone cannot determine whether God exists, Pascal concludes that this question functions as a coin toss. However, even if we do not know the outcome of this coin toss, we must base our actions on some expectation about the consequence. We must decide whether to live as though God exists, or whether to live as though God does not exist, even though we may be mistaken in either case.

In Pascal's assessment, participation in this wager is not optional. Merely by existing in a state of uncertainty, we are forced to choose between the available courses of action for practical purposes.

As you can see, the argument is a bit more complex than your probably thought it was. (Which isn't to say that it's actually a good argument, but it would take a lot of work to refute it.)

Last edited by Chuckychess; 10-01-2022 at 01:19 PM.

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11-16-2022 , 12:28 AM

#182

FellaGaga-52

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To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. -- Thomas Paine

As to how this quote applies to those who consciously, intentionally and strategically renounce reason in the pursuit and defense of their beliefs ... one feels it is almost merciful that Paine is spared having to witness it.

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11-16-2022 , 09:24 AM

#183

Chuckychess

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Quote:

Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

Great quote! Thanks for sharing it.

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11-19-2022 , 10:56 PM

#184

NotGonnaHappen?

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Chucky,

Just grunching here. I haven't read all your sh*t. What is your basic, bare bones, spiritual thought?

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11-20-2022 , 02:24 AM

#185

Chuckychess

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Originally Posted by NotGonnaHappen?

Chucky,

Just grunching here. I haven't read all your sh*t. What is your basic, bare bones, spiritual thought?

Don't feed the troll.

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11-20-2022 , 03:27 AM

#186

NotGonnaHappen?

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Originally Posted by Chuckychess

Don't feed the troll.

Trust us, we won't.

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11-20-2022 , 08:29 AM

#187

Chuckychess

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Originally Posted by NotGonnaHappen?

Trust us, we won't.

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11-20-2022 , 09:04 PM

#188

FellaGaga-52

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There was a Biblical attack at a Colorado Springs club this week. Homosexuals should be put to death, says Leviticus. So a "holy believer" carried out the Biblical dictate. Take responsibility for what this filthy stuff is.

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11-20-2022 , 09:08 PM

#189

FellaGaga-52

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"Guess what," says the ancient religion of the "Holy Land." "We have discovered the one true god. And he is just like us: murderous, genocidal, bigoted, blood-thirsty for sacrifice, magical, supernatural believing."

For once give it a break and get real. Or else you are cool with the prescriptive killing of "wrong doers" so prevalent in the scriptures.

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11-20-2022 , 09:19 PM

#190

NotGonnaHappen!

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Originally Posted by Chuckychess

Are you going to answer my question? Or have you forgotten already?

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11-20-2022 , 09:35 PM

#191

FellaGaga-52

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

Let me guess. You just have to suspend rationality to understand how moral these dictates "from god" are. And since he never changes, if it was moral then it is moral now. Is there any problem here? Or no ... true believers are on board with that.

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11-21-2022 , 12:31 AM

#192

Chuckychess

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

The OT penalty for engaging in homosexual activity was death by stoning. And it was not to be carried out by a vigilante.

Homosexual acts violate God's plan for mankind, but justice was not to be meted out by a rogue individual.

In addition, the Judicial Laws of Leviticus applied specifically to those under the Abrahamic Covenant. Not applicable to folks today.

The shooter in Colorado Springs did a wicked act and should receive the most severe sentence allowed in the state of Colorado.

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11-21-2022 , 12:32 AM

#193

Chuckychess

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Originally Posted by NotGonnaHappen!

Are you going to answer my question? Or have you forgotten already?

I don't answer questions from trolls.

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11-21-2022 , 01:01 AM

#194

FellaGaga-52

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuckychess

The OT penalty for engaging in homosexual activity was death by stoning. And it was not to be carried out by a vigilante.

Homosexual acts violate God's plan for mankind, but justice was not to be meted out by a rogue individual.

In addition, the Judicial Laws of Leviticus applied specifically to those under the Abrahamic Covenant. Not applicable to folks today.
@
The shooter in Colorado Springs did a wicked act and should receive the most severe sentence allowed in the state of Colorado.

Yeah, they didn't quite have rifles then did they? So it was moral THEN to kill people for being homosexual, wasn't it? According to your god and your religion and YOU! You just addressed the issue of the morality of stoning human beings for being homosexual, and nowhere did you have the morality to say, "It's wrong." Anywhere, anytime, any place, any claimed god: wrong. You fail the test of saying it's immoral to kill people with bigotry as the reason.

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11-21-2022 , 01:04 AM

#195

FellaGaga-52

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

I will give you credit for having the gall to address the issue instead of just run. But when the bottom line is, "Yeah, it's okay with me to kill them for it" ... I think you have made of it the most immoral of belief systems.

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11-21-2022 , 01:13 AM

#196

FellaGaga-52

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Amazing that they will show their face but "they know not what they say" nor what it means about them and the belief system. It's just "the magic invisible man said so who am I to question it? I'm down with the killing." They turn this type of abject obedience into a virtue in the system, when any reasonable take on it recognizes that it is this exact type of "going along with anything" that is the main motor of evil in the world.

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11-21-2022 , 01:32 AM

#197

Chuckychess

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

Yeah, they didn't quite have rifles then did they? So it was moral THEN to kill people for being homosexual, wasn't it?

Yes.

Quote:

According to your god and your religion and YOU! You just addressed the issue of the morality of stoning human beings for being homosexual, and nowhere did you have the morality to say, "It's wrong." Anywhere, anytime, any place, any claimed god: wrong. You fail the test of saying it's immoral to kill people with bigotry as the reason.

Homosexual acts are an abomination, according to the Bible. It is not wrong to punish homosexual behavior. It wouldn't even be wrong if the United States passed a law making homosexual activity a capital crime. In other words, homosexual acts are always an offence to God, but don't of necessity need to be a civil offence.

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11-21-2022 , 01:35 AM

#198

Chuckychess

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

No, it is not okay for me to kill them for it. That is up to the civil authorities, if that is what they choose to do.

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11-21-2022 , 01:39 AM

#199

Chuckychess

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Originally Posted by FellaGaga-52

Oops.

FellaGaga-52 has shifted into rant mode.

Where's my shock face....?

Found it!

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11-21-2022 , 02:00 AM

#200

FellaGaga-52

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There you have it. It is holy and moral to kill people because of the natural diversity that exists in the world. And of course, it is never "my" type that needs to be killed for being different, it's those "others." "KILL! Our holy god commands it. It's not us making up the god, it the holy almighty loving god that wants the killing."

You have to believe it. You have to believe and swallow that, sacrificing all actual right and wrong to this pre-medieval superstition, in order to stick to this system. "Far be it from me to declare that genocide, infanticide, murderous bigotry is wrong ... it says in an ancient book that it isn't wrong" ... this is the mentality of the true believer.

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