Are you an atheist? You sound like that agent from the Matrix.

That's a pretty bleak world view you have there, but it seems to align with an atheistic one. I don't share it, since I've been lucky enough to meet some good people.

Strawman. Read what I posted earlier.

Many countries in the first group fought very hard to lessen the influence of religion in their societies.

When people say they want to lessen the influence of religion, usually they are referring to wanting to rid schools of unnecessary dogma, bad science, etc. They're not trying to get rid of the underlying morals.

Not true. I for one definitely want to get rid of the underlying morals and am certainly not the only one. Examples: equality for women, Rights to divorce, abortion and same sex marriage. Tolerance for sexual activity considered sinful: Premarital sex, homosexuality, sex not for the purpose of recreation etc.

Well, yeah I do too. Unfortunately a few extreme religious types don't understand Jesus at all, and the result is that well-meaning atheists and non religious types think Christianity is about being a right-wing bigot. (Except for abortion, which is barbaric, but that's another issue).

Jesus pretty much nullified all of the above as sins.

But you're attacking a straw man: in most of those countries and here, all of the above are legal and will be forever.

But what about other morals which are actually far more relevant and important, such as murder, thievery, rape, etc, and moral ideals such as reciprocity, the dignity of man, etc?

No, I am not. These rights had to be fought for very hard for centuries by secular-minded People. We have them despite religion, not because of. Also "most countries" is not enough.

You cannot honestly believe we would not have these values without religion.

No, Jesus and other religious thinkers were the first civil rights activists. And I don't know what you mean by secular-minded people. Are you saying a religious person can't be secular-minded as well as religious-minded? The current Pope takes care of the homeless, for example.

Those rights are luxuries compared to major civil rights like freeing slaves. Without appeal to a higher moral authority, slavery isn't immoral at all.


Of course I do. It was Jesus who really revolutionized thought in the west. Even Aristotle didn't have a problem with slavery. Why else would Roman aristocratic values change if not from a revolutionary religious figure?

Of course in the ancient world, murder, rape, and thievery were considered crimes - as long as they happened to a nobleman.

You have a very warped understanding of history and philosophy.

That quote actually makes me sick.

Well, from what perspective is it immoral then?

Ad hominem

OK, I'll bite. Slavery isn't immoral without god. Now explains to me why it is immoral with god.

A breakthrough!! Or is it a trap? Time will tell...

Well, from the religious teachings I believe, God wants us to treat each other with respect and as equals, not forcing others to do our bidding. So, slavery kind of goes against that just a little bit.

What if god does not see it that way?

My turn to bite I guess.

I can't know that for sure because I have never met God. But I trust that God isn't tricking us. It's the nature of faith, which is why faith is such a big part of being religious. I realize that's hard for a nonbeliever to understand, but faith is a powerful and sometimes difficult thing.

I can quickly think of one reason why God *probably* wouldn't see it that way:

He created the world and loves people, so why would he want them to enslave each other. If you had children, would you like seeing your oldest son enslave your youngest?

Is this the only possible god that could exist?

No. Anything is possible.

So there could be a god under which slavery,rape and/or murder is moral?

Sure. That falls under the category of 'anything', right?

That is where you and I disagree. I posit that slavery, rape and murder are immoral no matter if god condones it or not. Therefore I believe there is a morality that exists independently of god.

No ill accept it.

I cant have object morality now even with God...If i cant know anything for sure i cant know what morals are true even if they are said to come form a God.

It makes the word know meaningless. But who needs all the words.

Does this morality also exist independently from human experience?

I am not sure I understand the question. Can you rephrase that?

We really should throw 'know' out of the dictionary.

I think when you throw out all the man-made 'knowledge' you get to an inner knowledge in your heart. Children know that cruelty is wrong

Cool.