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"Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig "Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig

12-09-2010 , 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position

Second, what you are calling "condemnatory Christianity" certainly seems like a form of Christianity to me. I am not sure what your basis for claiming otherwise, except for a misquoted half sentence from one of Jesus' sermons.
I have to speak to this, the "misquoted half sentence" thing. I was referring to the episode in which the woman was found in adultery and the pharisees hoped to catch Christ Jesus in condemnation. As the episode goes, no one was willing to "throw the first stone", each being affected by their guilt. Christ Jesus wrote in the dirt with His finger, which refers to a karmic bond as what the woman has done will manifest in her karma, cared for by Christ.

Back to the "judge not " thing, I don't see it as a commandment, but more like advice in how to better one's self. The road is long and circuitous in nature and each man brings into his heart what he is able , each to his own time and place.
"Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 04:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlo
I have to speak to this, the "misquoted half sentence" thing. I was referring to the episode in which the woman was found in adultery and the pharisees hoped to catch Christ Jesus in condemnation. As the episode goes, no one was willing to "throw the first stone", each being affected by their guilt. Christ Jesus wrote in the dirt with His finger, which refers to a karmic bond as what the woman has done will manifest in her karma, cared for by Christ.

Back to the "judge not " thing, I don't see it as a commandment, but more like advice in how to better one's self. The road is long and circuitous in nature and each man brings into his heart what he is able , each to his own time and place.
The phrase "judge not" comes from the Matthew 7:1, not from the story of the woman taken in adultery. As for karmic bonds, it seems to me that you are importing a foreign concept into the Bible. Undeserved grace is an important theme in the New Testament, and that seems to go against the idea of karma.
"Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Do you know even a single person that believes that Jesus Christ is god, that he came down to earth to redeem sinners so that they will not suffer eternal damnation, but has nonetheless decided to not be a Christian because they want to keep on lying, lusting, and fornicating?

Also, do you have any evidence that Christians lust, lie, and fornicate less than non-Christians?
we all fall short to the glory of God and sin. the difference is a christian repents and feels sorry for what they have done and tries to sin no more.

I dont sin nearly as much now that i am a christian, i cant speak for everyone nor think all christians live a christian life.

I'm saying the whole reason they wont look at Jesus being the son of God with an open mind is because they love there sin. Living a christian lifestyle doesnt fit what they want so they just say...thats all a lie.
"Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 05:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightx
Ah yes, so all those mormons, 7DA, JWs, Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, reject Christianity because they love to sin.

iamunLUCKY, listen to your friend, go get some professional help. Find a Christian therapist if it makes you more comfortable.
im refering to religion in general (mine is christianity). Jews, muslims, etc try not to sin, correct? People that reject religion sometimes do because it doesnt fit the life they want to live (or love there sin).
"Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 05:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamunLUCKY
im refering to religion in general (mine is christianity). Jews, muslims, etc try not to sin, correct? People that reject religion sometimes do because it doesnt fit the life they want to live (or love there sin).
ah ok, so now its "sometimes". You and your pal Craig should try not to make sweeping over-generalizations.

there are ******s on both sides of the aisle. plenty of people follow Christianity because of stupid reasons. You call those people "fake Christians", yet somehow you dont call people who reject religion because they believe in God but what to live a hedonistic lifestyle "fake Atheists".
"Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamunLUCKY
we all fall short to the glory of God and sin. the difference is a christian repents and feels sorry for what they have done and tries to sin no more.
So? The difference between Christians and non-Christians is that the Christian feels bad while sinning and the non-Christian doesn't?

Incidentally, if this were true, that non-Christians don't feel bad about sinning, then why do so many Christians claim that non-Christians should become Christians so that they no longer have to feel guilty for sinning?

Also, this statement
Quote:
I dont sin nearly as much now that i am a christian, i cant speak for everyone nor think all christians live a christian life.
contradicts this one:
Quote:
I'm saying the whole reason they wont look at Jesus being the son of God with an open mind is because they love there sin. Living a christian lifestyle doesnt fit what they want so they just say...thats all a lie.
If you can't speak for others, then you shouldn't.
"Reasonable Faith" by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 05:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by carlo
No, I don't. Only ill will could make your statement and so who can speak to you? Thridden was put off by the quotes of Craig and I hoped to give some clarity to the situation according to my readings. I too, am put off by the quotes. It's not hard to imagine.

You really didn't read what I wrote or you couldn't write what you wrote. I'll repeat: Christianity or the Christ Impulse is an activity to which each and every one of us is involved and it is not necessary to run down to the local Presbyterian Church to "sign up".

<snip>

My attempts are to characterize and not condemn, as best I can, and underlying this is a searching comprehension as the world presents to one's active self. You're offended , living in ill will, and this manifests by your skeptical denial of any perspective to which I have pointed.

<snip speculation about the Christ Impulse>
The fact that I think your attempt to provide some clarity to the situation actually obscured the issue doesn't mean that I have any ill will towards you, WLC, or anyone else. I also don't have a problem with your version of Christianity (although I do think it is either false, meaningless, or trivially true), but that doesn't mean that we should pretend that the form of Christianity practiced by WLC and many other Christians is not a real version of Christianity as well.

However, since you indicated that you're not interested in talking about WLC, or his version of Christianity, and since that was the topic I was interested in discussing then I can drop it.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 06:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
So? The difference between Christians and non-Christians is that the Christian feels bad while sinning and the non-Christian doesn't?

Incidentally, if this were true, that non-Christians don't feel bad about sinning, then why do so many Christians claim that non-Christians should become Christians so that they no longer have to feel guilty for sinning?

Also, this statement


contradicts this one:


If you can't speak for others, then you shouldn't.
the bible says all we have to do is repent so there is a big difference. You are either forgiven or not.

Do you want me to list every single reason people reject religion???? Loving sin is a big reason, there are obv other reasons, but this is prob the biggest one imo. Your statement about how i contradict myself is a bit absurd.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 06:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dknightx
ah ok, so now its "sometimes". You and your pal Craig should try not to make sweeping over-generalizations.

there are ******s on both sides of the aisle. plenty of people follow Christianity because of stupid reasons. You call those people "fake Christians", yet somehow you dont call people who reject religion because they believe in God but what to live a hedonistic lifestyle "fake Atheists".
how can an atheists be fake if they believe in nothing? show me an atheists that believes in God and then ill call them fake.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 06:09 PM
Quote:
Loving sin is a big reason, there are obv other reasons, but this is prob the biggest one imo.
can you give any reason to believe this is true? for instance, I like premarital sex, but I think that if I had good reason to believe the creator of the universe and being that had control over the eternal fate of my soul did not like premarital sex then I would wait until marriage...
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 06:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thirddan
can you give any reason to believe this is true? for instance, I like premarital sex, but I think that if I had good reason to believe the creator of the universe and being that had control over the eternal fate of my soul did not like premarital sex then I would wait until marriage...
why are people atheists? Is it because they can go around doing whatever they want (sinning) guilt free because they dont fear being judged by God after they die? Imo this is a big reason, obv there are other reasons.

I dont get why someone would want to believe when we die your just 6 feet deep and its Game Over. Everyone wants to live, if they didnt they would kill themselves. So why wouldnt they want to live after this lifetime, if even say there was a really small possiblity of it happening? Prob because they dont wanna be told what to do in there lives, imo.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamunLUCKY
why are people atheists? Is it because they can go around doing whatever they want (sinning) guilt free because they dont fear being judged by God after they die? Imo this is a big reason, obv there are other reasons.

I dont get why someone would want to believe when we die your just 6 feet deep and its Game Over. Everyone wants to live, if they didnt they would kill themselves. So why wouldnt they want to live after this lifetime, if even say there was a really small possiblity of it happening? Prob because they dont wanna be told what to do in there lives, imo.
i dont really know any atheist that claims this as a reason not to believe in god, and definitely not the main reason...i do however hear theists (even on this board) claim that if they found out there was no god then they would start raping and stealing...
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamunLUCKY
Do you want me to list every single reason people reject religion???? Loving sin is a big reason, there are obv other reasons, but this is prob the biggest one imo. Your statement about how i contradict myself is a bit absurd.
Yes. For instance, do you think that one reason that people reject religion is because they think that accepting it would require them to believe something they think is false?
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 06:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Yes. For instance, do you think that one reason that people reject religion is because they think that accepting it would require them to believe something they think is false?
yes

why should that stop them from trying?
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 07:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamunLUCKY
yes

why should that stop them from trying?
Trying what?
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 07:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Trying what?
Trying to believe something that you believe to be false, obviously!
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 08:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamunLUCKY
yes

why should that stop them from trying?
in your opinion what religion should atheists fake believe in? if all my friends were muslim should i fake believe to be muslim? if i love celebrating christmas should i fake believe in christianity? if i like chinese food should i go budhist?

meh thinking of going the judaism route for the jokes...
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seefut22
if i like chinese food should i go budhist?
Clearly Jewish ldo.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by duffe
For starters, I think we can infer that 'being' or 'to be' is the proximate cause of all things. Every thing can be said to have being; there is no thing that does not have being; and if a thing were deprived of being, it would not be. From this, I think we can conclude that being is the first and necessary cause of all things, which isn't exactly earth-shattering because things are existents and existents exist, are or have being.
It is a side issue, but I don't see this inference at all. Since as far as I am concerned, "being" (as a synonym for "existing") is just a way of saying that something is instantiated, I don't see how it can cause anything. It isn't anything apart from what we are applying it to. More generally, to me this is like saying that the proximate cause of the apple being red is "redness." If I'm looking for the proximate cause to the apple being red, I'll look to biology for the answers, not metaphysics.

Also, lots of "things" don't have being, e.g. Santa Claus, unicorns, square circles, fuzziness, etc, etc. I'm trying to make sense of what you say in a way that doesn't lead to you just saying, everything that exists exists. That is true, but I don't see how you would then draw the conclusion that "Existing is the cause of everything that exists" unless we thought that "existing" was somehow separate from things that exist (i.e. as if redness existed apart from entities that are red).

Quote:
Now, I agree that the real question is why we, or Aquinas, should identify God as being. Briefly, when we take into account what the prophets, mystics and those acknowledged as having had some sort of glimpse of God are saying, what they're saying about God sounds an awful lot like what we could say about being. Being transcends all existents; being is all-powerful in the sense that there is literally nothing to delimit it; being can't by definition be other-caused and hence is it's own cause; being is all there ever was and all that could possibly be; etc… Probably the most significant for Aquinas, though, is God's revelation to Moses as, "I Am that I Am," which is taken as the self-reference, self-definition of being. And because being reveals itself to man is why it's not treated as a null predicate or some sort of impersonal natural force. In short, being is personal and, as Aquinas gets into as did Aristotle, the grasp of being is the first act of the intellect when we know first that a thing is and that we are (I am). That we have that 'intuition of being' is why being is personal (literally, we are it) and because being is personable is why Aquinas calls it God.
I suppose that it is possible that when people have mystical experiences that they are experiencing "Being." However, this doesn't really justify our identifying "God" with "Being." After all, it is a well-known fact of these experiences that they are often not of a God at all (for most versions of Buddhism, if you have a mystical experience of God, then you are doing it wrong). So the same reasoning would lead us to identify "Being" with Brahmin, or Nothingness, or Mother Nature, or various other religions.

As a result, it doesn't seem justified to claim that Being "reveals itself to humans" in a personal way. Some people have interpreted their mystical experiences this way (although, it should be noted that even in Christianity the pinnacle of the mystical experience is a sense of union with the ineffable--an experience that mystics almost universally agree cannot be accurately captured in theological terms), and others have not. What is notable is how almost all mystics interpret their experiences in the terms of the religion they are in. Very few mystics after having a mystical experience realize that their basic theology is false--and since their basic theologies differ dramatically this is not an encouraging sign of the usefulness of these types of experiences in guiding our decision to accept a particular theology.

As for Moses, I don't see why we should think that the so-called mystical experiences of a legendary figure in the misty legends of the founding of Israel have any value as evidence of the nature of God.

However, I feel like we are talking at cross-purposes here. I end up disagreeing with almost everything you say here both about mystical experiences and especially your claims about "Being" in such a way that I feel like I must be misunderstanding what you say.


Quote:
I had no real idea what people were talking about when they referenced God other than just some vague, insubstantial term or some anthropomorphous entity. The Bible made absolutely no sense to me whatsoever, in terms of conceptualizing God and just trying to believe in God as posited in the Bible didn't bring about any sort of understanding or revelation for me, either. Neither were apologists like Craig and Plantinga of much help. I mean I can follow their arguments, but as to what they actually mean when they say God, frankly I had no idea and to some extent, still don't. Like the Bible, IMO, they posit God and then define him into existence, which is fine if one already has a conception of God or believes in him, but does very little for me in terms of getting to God. So, I plodded my way through the Summa, and I came to what I think to be a logical and conceptual understanding of God from doing so. Whether my conception of God is what others think of by God I don't know and sometimes I have my doubts that it is. Nonetheless, I know what I'm thinking about when I'm thinking about God and so I do think of God in a Thomistic sense.
Interesting. I guess I think that the anthropomorphic conception of God is central to traditional Christian theology--I think this accounts in part for the centrality of the doctrine of the Incarnation.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 11:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seefut22
in your opinion what religion should atheists fake believe in? if all my friends were muslim should i fake believe to be muslim? if i love celebrating christmas should i fake believe in christianity? if i like chinese food should i go budhist?

meh thinking of going the judaism route for the jokes...
why believe in nothing? You are taking the risk of a lose/lose scenario. You must be 100000% sure God doesnt exist, right? That is a loooooottt of faith.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-09-2010 , 11:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamunLUCKY
why believe in nothing? You are taking the risk of a lose/lose scenario. You must be 100000% sure God doesnt exist, right? That is a loooooottt of faith.
for starters maybe because i believe that there is nothing.

as for faith, personally, i think that it is a lot of faith to believe in some teachings in a book that are claimed to be the direct words of a higher being (or anything similar in any religion).

even if i were to ever believe that there was a higher being, i dont think that i could ever know which god from which religion it was.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-10-2010 , 12:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamunLUCKY
When he says darkness he is refering to sin. People love to lust, lie, fornicate, etc and because of this they wont become Christians. They feel that christianity doesnt fit the way they live and they dont want to be tied down to certain restrictions and feel guilty if they do sin. So they simply say I dont believe God and will live however I want because they love to sin (live in darkness).
I know what he means. Its a Christian go to to relieve guilt and convince themselves all have had the opportunity to accept their God.

Also your and his argument makes no sense. If a non believer likes to sin and that is the reason they reject God...then they are believer.

Last edited by batair; 12-10-2010 at 12:53 AM.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-10-2010 , 12:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by seefut22
for starters maybe because i believe that there is nothing.

as for faith, personally, i think that it is a lot of faith to believe in some teachings in a book that are claimed to be the direct words of a higher being (or anything similar in any religion).

even if i were to ever believe that there was a higher being, i dont think that i could ever know which god from which religion it was.
a lot of people are believers from having spiritual experiences. i know that i didnt just choose to be a christian because i read the bible. my experiences were good enough for me to become a christian and it didnt take a whole lot of faith. I understood it, it didnt take nearly as much faith as someone thinking that everything came from nothing imo.
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-10-2010 , 01:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
It is a side issue, but I don't see this inference at all. Since as far as I am concerned, "being" (as a synonym for "existing") is just a way of saying that something is instantiated, I don't see how it can cause anything.
Well, it becomes a central issue when you say, "something is instantiated." What's doing the instantiating?

Aquinas defines an actual thing as having ('having' used loosely) existence (EX) and essence (ES). For example, I (ES) am (EX), it (ES) is (EX), you (ES) are (EX), etc…

So what do you conceive of as causing a thing to be? In other words, what causes a thing to be rather than not be?
&quot;Reasonable Faith&quot; by William Lane Craig Quote
12-10-2010 , 02:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
As a result, it doesn't seem justified to claim that Being "reveals itself to humans" in a personal way.
That's not really where the argument hinges, but if you reject the earlier definition of Being as ipsum esse subsistens (self-subsistent act of existing) then you can't get to where Aquinas is going. The reason is because being isn't something 'out there' to be grasped; it's intrinsic to who you are. Not what you are or your essence, but that you are or your beingness. The personalness comes because 'It is you' and because you know you are, you know It is.

Last edited by duffe; 12-10-2010 at 02:33 AM. Reason: spelling
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