The notion of "the Son of God dying for the sins of humanity" is a very old notion that is not really understood by the vast majority of modern Christians or people in general, and tends be viewed simply as a "see what a nice guy God is?" type of arrangement. The truth is that this idea is based off of a common ancient Near Eastern practice (with analogues in many cultures) called a blood debt.

The idea is that certain heinous crimes (rape, murder, brutal attacks, and especially assaults on social superiors) could only be paid for with the perpetrator's blood, or by offering some sacrifice on his behalf to the gods. Sacrifices were offered in many cases not just to pay blood debts, but also to ask for succor from various deities, and El Shaddai/Yahweh was no exception. In an age of universalist mystery religions (ie the first century), the issue of humanity's imperfections took center stage. Various religions dealt with this in many ways, but in the context of Judaism, wickedness could best be atoned for through blood (this is an old trope, as Yahweh was already "known" to have one-upped the Mesopotamian gods with a flood that devastated humanity, and punished the Egyptian elites by massacring their infants).

So if the wickedness of humanity was so great, the only way to satisfy a blood debt would be with the sacrifice of, perhaps, the son of a god, or a god himself. This is where the notion of "Christ dying for our sins" originates, with the Hellenistic Judaism of the first century. I can leave it to religion to create concepts as monstrous as original sin and blood debts, but I chalk it up to human folly to peddle around Bronze Age legalisms in 2011.

Really? In what way? You seem to be the one that is twisting and turning in an attempt to hold your position. I am pretty sure that you know ,deep down, that the bible is indefensible, but you try anyway. Debating doctrine is part of debating whether the bible is valid, because it pokes holes and shows flaws and inconsistencies in the doctrine

You - murder is wrong
atheist - god murders people
You - thats ok, its god
atheist- so murder isnt wrong?
You - murder is wrong
atheist - god murders people
etc etc etc

This kind of trying to slither out of your position makes me sick.

Are you saying that it was ok for god to kill 42 "young men" because they mocked someone?

Once again Christians don't understand that any being with a heart forgives all kinds of wrong doings of a human, we forgive our friends and family no matter if they deserve the forgiveness or not, if GOD is loving he would forgive, better yet if he was loving he wouldn't design us in such way where we would have to "sin". In heaven nobody sins, why then not skip the life on earth and create us straight in heaven? Please Christians , GIVE ME a good reason why would a loving creator make us go through this life before we can live eternal lives in heaven and I promise you I will give you a bunch of counter arguments pointing out to either not a loving God or a God who created unnecessary pain, suffering for some people while majority of humans ever to exist did not have to go through this step. Go ahead.

+1...

God can do no wrong according to Christians, if he peels the skin of you while you are crying out of pain because you decided to masturbate then it's all good cause it's GOD and he can do no wrong... lol

This is the typical story(Christian destroyed)..
god's moral standards
http://youtu.be/oUaLbt-0Ic0

This is a great exchange between Matt and the caller and I do hope theists (esp Wizard) watch it to the conclusion. Matt's speech pretty much embodies my take on religion and if nothing else, I hope Christians will at least try and shed this attitude that they are not worthy to stand in the shadow of their god or of being human.

Children who've been grown up in abusive environments say things like this, that after years of abuse they say they deserve the beatings they get, or that they probably did do something wrong. This is nonsense! You are better than that and you deserve better. All of us do.

Show me one person that has lived a sinless life.



I'll watch that video in a bit.

gskowal constantly takes one biblical truth without accounting for the rest of the Bible. It doesn't work that way. If you want to discuss biblical doctrine we need to start out in agreement that the Bible is valid and true. The whole Bible. Otherwise we're just pissing in the wind.

Taking the whole bible as true, what does the story regarding the 40+ young men being mauled to death for calling a prophet a "baldy" say about God's character? What does it say about God's stance on brutal killing?

If you're interested in learning about scripture you're reading, pick up an ESV Study Bible. It's a great resource to have, and I highly recommend ESV as it's the most transparent English translation to the original text.

From ESV Study Bible notes:

2 Kings 2:23–24 jeered at him. The focal point for Israel’s apostasy was Bethel (see 1 Kings 12:25–13:34). Therefore, it is no surprise to find young people from this city adopting a disrespectful attitude toward a prophet of the Lord, and to treat a prophet with disrespect is to treat God himself with disrespect. The reference to the baldhead is not clear, but Elisha might have already been so bald by nature that to youthful eyes he looked grotesque; or perhaps some prophets, like later Christian monks, shaved their heads as a mark of their vocation. he cursed them. … And two she-bears … tore forty-two of the boys. Though this judgment may at first seem harsh, the group must have included over 50 boys old enough to be out running in a pack, and so they constituted something of a physical threat to Elisha. The authors of Kings regularly show that contempt toward divinely called prophets is disastrous for God’s people.

Seriously? this is typical apologetics. From the King James Version of the bible..

23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

Apologists turn the text around and from the "little children" make up a gang of nasty killers, and from "mocked him" make it up as if they beaten him up , or started throwing rocks at him and poor Bethel needed to defend himself from an angry CROWD of murdering crazy ADULTS he asked GOD to send bears to kill them and save his life..

lol..

I'm asking you to think for yourself, not point to the ESV commentary. I've read multiple study bibles before so I'm asking you what YOU believe that passage says about God.

Anyways, in the commentary you copied, the insinuation that these youths were a physical threat to Elisha is unproven in the scripture and there is nothing to suggest that Elisha was under any physical threat at all, otherwise they would have made that mention.

Sure, let's do it.. Do you think the whole bible is VALID and TRUE? and tell me what do you mean by VALID and what do you mean by TRUE.

You can twist it round as much as you want, it doesnt make any difference.
However you put it, however you spin it You are saying you agree that a just punishment for mockery is to be ripped apart by wild bears

Is this a position you want to take?

Wizard 50,

Do you believe a Pakistani muslim who led a good life but rejected Jesus Christ will go to heaven?

Would you guys mind using an ESV translation? AFAIK it's more accurate to original text.

Yes i do. By 'valid' i mean accepted as the Word of God. By 'true' I mean infallible. Infallible to the extent we can understand it. There are obviously different translations with various purposes(simplicity of reading, transparency, accuracy, audience, etc.), and various positive and negative results of those purposes.

If this is acceptable to you, let's continue.

No. Obv redundant question is obv. scroll up.

This is the position I take.

God is wrathful. If you're not one of God's children you're standing in the path of the wrath of God. His judgment is just. His wrath is righteous. I deserve to be ripped apart by bears too. By God's grace I won't be.

Yes it is speculation, and it should be taken as such.

Infallible in what sense?

No mistakes, no contradictions? All historical reference in it is correct? explain in more detail.

It is infallible, but we will not know everything in full. This is a function of restrictions by worldly language and worldly minds attempting to understand the divine.

What leads you to believe that you "deserve to be ripped apart by bears too"?

What leads you to believe that God is wrathful, and that His wrath is always justifiable? Why is God's judgement in this case "just", why is His judgement always just? Just because? (no pun intended)

What leads you to believe that a God who is wrathful and unforgiving deserves to be worshiped? Do you believe that prior to Jesus, God was worthy to be worshiped? If yes, why.

Where was God's grace for these 40+ youths who were ripped apart by bears? When/Why does God choose to show grace in such an non-deterministic manner?

Sorry but you are so wrong here that I am not even sure how to get through to you so that you could understand this. I think that religion has poisoned you and you are unable to think clearly. This is not meant to be offensive, I am just stating what I see. This is pretty common when it comes to Christians. They are being indoctrinated to the point they think they don't deserve to live, they think they are just these disgusting beings not worthy of anything, etc, etc..

http://youtu.be/fUKrKbI2alo?t=1m14s

http://youtu.be/-W232YxOkeM

But the bible has many contradictions let it be historical, scientific or even one author disagreeing with the other. It is clearly not infallible so your position does not hold here..