Saw that saying on the FFRF (Freedom from Religion Foundation) site recently, and it got me thinking...

Of all my problems with Christianity, it is the whole "Jesus Died for Your Sins" idea that bothered me the most (I was a practicing Catholic for most of my life fwiw). I knew I hadn't done anything wrong, but I still felt horrible that this great and loving person suffered so much pain and torture because of me. I guess that is the crux of the guilt many Christians (esp Catholics) feel.

But from a pragmatic point of view, the entire storyline makes no sense even if you agree that humans are born sinful. There are literally an infinite number of ways an all-powerful God could have wiped the slate clean and opened the doors of heaven to humans. He could have just done it. He could have simply sent Jesus to preach and rewarded those who believed. He could have simply had Jesus die a natural/painless death and rise again. He could have made his resurrection more obvious to everyone so that there would be NO doubt and more humans would have the chance to be saved.

If God loved his Son why force him to suffer like that just to prove some sort of point? What loving parent would do that? And what is the point, exactly?

Not to mention, the way it played out seems to feed into a lot of anti-semitism which God must have known would happen, so why choose to do it that way?

Anyway I am not knocking belief, I just think the entire passion and death is a rather gruesome story and it always bothered me as a kid and fed into my guilt. Now as a non-believer, I look at a beautiful newborn baby and I KNOW it is innocent and that no one had to die for its "sins".

Well clearly because you don't understand why an all knowing god chose to sacrifice his son for your sins, then it must be false. We probally just exist for nothing and formed out of nothing. One question though. If all that is true then what is the point of living?

Good question. Don't really have much of an answer to that. Maybe there isn't much of a point. However even if there isn't much point, that is not an argument for God, or certainly for any one particular God. Maybe there just.... isn't much point.

However that does not make the crucifixion story make any more sense. When a child asks why did Jesus have to suffer so much, the stock answer is, "He died for our sins". That makes no sense, as in there is really no connection between Jesus' suffering, and humanity's sins, other than the fact that we say there is.

you gotta sin as much as possible so that Jesus' death wouldn't be for nothing...

JoeyDiamonds?

Why do we have to be here for a reason? Just because it is uncomfortable to think that life is some sort of inconsequential happening, that doesn't make it less true.

As for why atheists keep living knowing (or at least believing) that there is no greater meaning to life, that has to do with the happiness and the "localized" meaning of life that is a result of the relationships people have, the experiences that they enjoy, etc.

It is actually pretty liberating believing that you are living for today (as cliche as that sounds) and not living in fear of what will happen to you in the afterlife.

What is the point of living if you end up in hell being tortured for eternity? If you had a choice die and seize to exist or die and end up in hell for eternity what would your choice be?

You make up a happy point of living because that what makes you happy but in reality what if you are wrong and some other GOD exits we have not heard of and he is SUPER EVIL and he will torture all of us for eternity. Would you now be happy that there is a point of this life and all of it is so that when you die you become a personal bitch of an evil god?

If this life is microscopically short compared to eternal life, there is huge amounts of suffering and the only point of it all is to sort out who goes where? What is the point of THAT life once you've been sorted? Isn't heaven the only thing that matters then?

Which do you think is more common? The person who finds out they have X amount of time left to live and says, "**** it, I'll just off myself right now then," or the person who suddenly finds life much more precious and meaningful, and tries to live every day to the fullest because they never know which could be their last?

Infinite afterlife makes this short life WAY LESS meaningful, not more. I will never understand how religious people get this so backwards. The thing is, you have attached a certain meaning to this life. If YOUR meaning isn't true, you erroneously conclude that there IS no meaning, for anyone. Very wrong.

I thought this was a sarcastic reply after I read that first sentence.

Why does there have to be a point to life? Stop worrying about that and go enjoy living out your life.

This doesn't apply to murderers, fwiw

Not to mention majority of humans That have ever existed either never were even born or died before they reached age where they actually were able to make any deeper decisions in regards to life, religion, etc. So this life as a test makes no sense because majority of humans never had to go through it making it unfair for those who actually do have to live it, possibly not believe in god and end up in hell fir eternity. Then what if you die in the wrong place at the wrong time, what if you would have become a believer 10 years later but because you died in a car crash now you are going to hell? Lol if god judges you only on your belief on non belief of his existence it's pretty idiotic.

He did do it.

You rejected it.

Your bad. Not His.


That is exactly what he did.


Where is God's love for you demonstrated through that scenario?
I think you missed the point of Christ coming-- which was reconciliation through faith.

This is the killer.
You were catholic for years and years, did the rosary and prayed and practiced, and it was never obvious to you?



I'm not saying I doubt you.
But this is a problem I have with catholic churches: that after 20 years of being a practicing catholic, you find that they can't talk in an informed way about basic, fundamental christian tenets.
They don't know the Word.
It seems like they have never received a revelation of it.
I see it again and again.
Basic salvation doctrine is not even apprehended.
There are no salvation calls, no great commission, and the believers not bringing forth fruit (souls.)
Just ask yourself this.
Which one of these are you?
If you can't find yourself in here, that may be the key to understanding the problem.

Here is a summary of atonement, from a blog I read the other day.

If I said that in return for dedicating the next 10 years of your life to writing novels exclusively in Klingon, I would give you the gift of flight and you didn't believe me, would it be just or valid of me to then push you out of a plane and say it's your fault, you rejected the gift of flight when it was offered?


Murder isn't love. Neither is suicide.

The problem is that Christianity has posited an all-powerful God that created everything - but that is somehow subject to some law that says we should all die for being what he created us to be. But... this isn't what he wants? You guys need to accept the fact that your doctrine makes a lot more sense if your angry jealous wargod actually does want those who don't want to worship him forever to go to hell.

Are you saying that there is no god because christians are wrong?

Not sure if you're addressing that to me or OP, but I'm pretty sure it's the Christian narrative that's under discussion here. Weird non sequitur.

Holy crap, that dude sounds like a peach. I do a happy dance every day knowing I don't have to worry about that wonderfully wrathful ****er known as god.

Man didn't get pushed out of the plane. He jumped of his own volition.

Man didn't jump Adam did and then he pulled billions with him. What a system. God should of pressed the reset button.

The plane is life. Anyone who doesn't commit suicide is not choosing to die. God put us on the plane by creating us. Maybe a better analogy is that the plane is going to crash, and only the pilot can save us. Either way it's not a situation that we've chosen or have any control over. The point is the pilot is nose-diving the plane and making ridiculous demands, when he's fully capable of landing the plane safely. The pilot is a dick and I am JUST A PASSENGER.

This really doesn't make much sense to me. It almost implies that God has no choice but to hate us for our sinful nature, but that by having his son suffer and die for us, that somehow satiated his wrath and allowed him to stop hating us.

I'm sorry but it seems to me that an all-loving, all-powerful God could simply choose to forgive humans for their weakness. This image of a wrathful God demanding blood be spilled to appease him is not the image of God I was taught (as you say, maybe Catholics in general play down the wrathful part of God and focus more on the feel-good parts - that could certainly be the case).

The funniest part is that God gave us our sinful nature, and is now, apparently, justified in punishing us for it

"Create problem -> offer solution" is one of the oldest sales techniques.

gogogo

does not compute

anyways, a much better question is, what's the big deal about Jesus' suffering/death?

1. The are millions of people who have lived much more suffering lives and suffered much more painful deaths, yet for no good reason.
2. Most normal people would be willing to go through such suffering/death for their loved ones, let alone for the salvation of the whole world. There is nothing particularly special about Jesus also doing the same.
3. After Jesus' death, he was sent to heaven to sit on the right hand of God. Any sane person would take the exact same deal as Jesus + more. Nothing special about what Jesus did.

I do not see how God's "love" is displayed in Jesus' "sacrifice" considering it was a sacrifice that any normal person would have done. Just because Jesus was "the Son of God" does not make it any better, all it does it makes God arrogant.