...It's a conscious decision after weighing things not a subconscious objection making the decision for us."

This is a quote from Splendour. It is from the "RIP Christopher Hitchens" thread.

My belief is that Splendour is wrong, that she can not provide a single argument or evidence which leads the rational person closer to Jesus.

I also believe that I may be incorrect. I would like to offer this thread as an oppertunity for her to demonstrate the latter suggestion is true.

What do all theists say is the reason they believe in god? it always starts with "based on my experience" conscious experiences right? And those conscious experiences help us make the conscious choice.

I'm not quite sure how you can claim to know what all theists say. I'm not sure how you can claim to know what 1/2 of all theists say. I'm not sure how you can claim to know what 1/10 of all theists say. So my instinct is that, no, you are not right.

Additionally, would you please tell me how consciousness = rational?

If Splendour would have made a claim about "consciousness" there would have been nothing to talk about. The claim was that there is some rational justification.

Someone's subjective conscious experience does not necessarily entail a "rational" experience, or else no conscious creature would be irrational.

I'd be very surprised if you fully believed this. She does have a non-zero amount of rational thought in favor of Jesus, and IMO it's not even close. It's just covered in BS and you're standing downwind.

Fair response given my wording.

I am Skeptical of Splendours claims. I've yet to see anything from her that was rational or that would back up her claim.

Presumably those who find the various logical arguments for theism to be compelling, even if not proofs (jibninjas, maybe?), will hold the view expressed by the quote.

I suspect so, however if they made the assertion, I would ask them to present me with something that at least appeared to back the claim up. I assume they gladly would too.

I am not sure why Splendour makes the assertion but is willing to offer no explanation, unless she (a) doesn't actually believe it (b) can't or (c) isn't actually interested in conversations which place any emphasis on logic/reason etc.

She is taking a break from RGT. Something about atheists not being able to handle her way of thinking.

I wouldn't, if it were me. I think it follows from accepting a logical argument for gods existence.

If I think that some argument (whatever it is) successfully establishes theism as the rational conclusion, I think I must also believe that the more rational someone is, the more likely they are to understand, and hence accept, the argument.

If there is substantial doubt in my mind about an argument's merit, I'm not going to consider it rational to hold the conclusion as true.

You guys most of the time seem like a bunch of bumbling idiots in my honest opinion.

Not one of you who reject God, Jesus Christ or the bible, has ever done what GOD asks all people to do, who want to experiencially know him, and in order to see the proof that HE exist, and that the bible, the words of God are truth, are real, and effectual...

Jhn 7:17 If any man will do his (God's) will, he (that man who does God's will) shall (absolutely) (experiencially) know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or [whether] I speak of myself.

Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

All atheist think of God's word as words of men. Not the words of God written by holy men of God, who were inspired by God.

The word effectually worketh in THOSE THAT BELIEVE the word.

You have to change your mind, your beliefs, in order to prove God's word is real. If you do not humble your mind and change the way you think and believe, you will not be able to prove the word of God is truth, is real and does work.

In order to do God's will, you have to know God's word, rightly divided. You have to know what God wants or asks of you to do, in order to carry it out. You also have to believe it. Doing what it asks in unbelief and speculation will get you no results, only the consequences of your own unbelief.

All you atheists on here who worship your own thinking and mind and believe that if you can't figure God out, then He must not exist, are nuts to think that all things revolve around your thinking.

By the way, happy holidays........

So, in order to get enough proof to be able to believe, you have to first just believe, and then you will get your proof. Sounds reasonable.
Surely if something is true, its true whether I believe in it or not?

Can't you read?

Those who believe will see the proof. Thats why Christians are called BELIEVERS in the bible. Because they BELIEVE.

Atheist are UN-BELIEVERS, they do not believe. They have a choice to believe, but refuse to believe. Believing is a CHOICE. Somethings you believe almost automatically, and some things require some evidence.

Believers believe the WORDS written or spoken that come from within the Bible. Those words are physical evidence. They are tangible, understandable words.

God created ALL mens minds with the capicity and the ability to believe, but He will not override their freewill choices.

You can choose to humble and subject the beliefs that have been built in your mind, to God's word, that are not really your own in the first place and replace them with the truths of God's written words, IF YOU SO CHOOSE.

Most definately the word of God is true whether you or I or anyone believes it or not. You just won't see the word in action, come to life, become effectual, UNLESS you choose to take believing action according to and upon the written word.

Simple as that.....

Yes, I can read fine thanks, can you?

So I am supposed to say to myself "there is no reason for me to believe, but I am just going to believe anyway?" Can you , pletho, choose to believe that, for example, if you drop something, it will fly upwards? Why not?
Again, it seems that all you are saying is, " to get proof, you must first believe without proof".

Pletho, you have a choice to believe in islam, but you refuse to believe. Believing in islam is a CHOICE. Some things you believe in almost automatically, and some things require some evidence.

So much anger... Perhaps you should try the atheist way, you will find more peace than your silly religion has to offer. You also won't feel like an idiot when you confide in an imaginary friend.

Of course, it also seems to you that the bible is the word of god.

I suspect your chances of being correct in your assessment of me are similar to your chances of "correctly dividing the word".

Correct, I have a choice to believe in Islam your right.

I simply choose to NOT believe in it, because it makes no sense at all. It does not satisify nor answer the questions of all of life in detail. There is not salvation, or eternal life offered or explained within the Koran. It's a man made religion, spawned by the adversary.

There is NO power in it at all. The bible teaches you how to operate spiritual power, by the renewing of your mind. But first you have to have holy spirit, which is your power base, before you can manifest this type of power, which is energized by believing and love. It's not power to hurt or destroy. But to help and heal others. The same power Jesus Christ operated on earth, the same power that set creation in motion.

Actually, your probably one of the only atheist or angnostics on here, that makes hardly any logical sense at all. You are skeptical and argumentative but at least you consider things it seems most of the time.

You may bring what you hear back to what you already believe, and then decide if it's true or not based on the conflicts that come up when doing that, but at least you take the time to listen I think?

Most on here, are just hateful, bigoted worshippers of their own ego and mind.

Thanks. (though I'm afraid I'm more egotistical than most, sadly. Nonetheless, I do make an effort to understand someone's point).

My comment was flippant, but it did have substance. Calling people bumbling idiots is not as likely to help someone to accept god (presumably your goal?) as providing arguments and/or demonstrations supporting the part of your beliefs they disagree with.

Fundamentally, I don't think anyone can understand god (if he exists). So anyone whose position is based on complete certainty that they do is suspect, in my view. Those without argument or demonstration may be correct, but they're not persuasive - especially if they are insulting or patronizing.

Belief and faith are difficult subjects. I never could make sense of the bible. I went from born again, to lost again, to born again in my life. For me the biggest evidence that the Christian religion is the true one is history. Right after the rejection of Jesus by the Jews the diaspora happens. Then 2000 years later that TINY race of people (the Jews) got their country back. The bible states that in the end times the anti-Christ will make a peace treaty with Israel. Israel had to be formed again for the bible to be correct.

How weird is that? How very unlikely is that Israel exists today? How many other small groups of people have reclaimed their homeland after 2000 years of separation? It only makes sense if you believe the Christian story IMO.

Just out of curiosity, where does the "gay demon" fall in terms of rational thought and intellectualism?

Also, please leave, as you gave us your word that you would.

The only way you can understand anything is by words......

So to understand God you must utilize words. God utilized words to explain Himself, His nature, His will and what those who want to understand and know Him, need to do.

People just do not get the fact that they are dealing with the supernatural, and intelligence beyong their finite minds.

If God is real, and God created mans mind, and we all know how much man worships his own ego, you have to agree that He (God) would have to be pretty intelligent.

The problem people have is the fact that God is invisible. He is not tangible in the physical realm.

Not one person on here since I have been here, has shown any genuine interest in actually learning HOW to understand the bible, which is the ONLY way to know God.

You may say you are egotistical, but you normally come off, less egotistical in my opinion than most on here.

I believe that IF you and I, both sat down with a bible and had a beer, and talked one on one, I would be able to show you things, if you were willing, that would change your viewpoints about the bible.

I am not saying I could sway you to believe, but I could give you enough information that you would have a very, very good chance at understanding what I am saying about rightly dividing, that I cannot really express in ways that people on here would understand.

Heck, I dont think anyone could. If Jesus Christ himself were on here, he could not make anyone believe, no matter what he said, if they already had their minds made up....

Pletho, can you prove that Islam is man made?
If you think that Islam does not answer the questions of life and christianity does, do you believe that the christian bible answering questions about life is a good enough reason to believe in it?

I was a christian and I felt the presence of god. I experienced the relationship, etc. But I talked a lot to people holding different beliefs (of different religions) and I came up with the answer that they pretty much feel the same. This convinced me that either:
a) God loves you regardless of religion
b) It's all just an illusion, my mind made it all up

Pletho, do you consider in your mind an extremely slim possibility that all your beliefs could be an illusion?

Not at all. As you mentioned, I too have experienced God, to the point that I know beyond a shadow of a doubt he exist. I won't let anyone or anything talk me out of that.

I have by Gods grace and mercy come to know and understand things that I had never even thought about beforehand. I have learned things that most Christians struggle with, and it's primarily do to ONE thing.

They do not believe the bible. They believe mans words or the world wisdom, above God's words and wisdom in the bible.

If you have no respect, or trust or belief in the bible, your up a creek without a paddle. It's the only way to know God.

People know you by your words and actions. They get to know you by what you talk about. God made known His heart and will via His written word. So, just like you cannot know me without my words, you cannot know God without His words.

Simple...

[] doesn't come off sounding pathetic