zzzzzz. You most certainly do imply that if a person isn't christian they can't be a true american.

you always just spout nonsense so whatever

Pletho...

whoa.... you skipped the first question. Have you compared what this country is like without God to confirm how it would be different? Perhaps save us some time and admit that this statement:
Is just nonsense puffery. You can't prove there's a God. Nor is there any evidence that he's interacting with the country. Nor do we know whether this country would be the same, better or worse if with or without many of its inhabitants believing in what you call god.

Quite a bit. But its really impossible to measure what the effect of this will be down the road.... what the difference in the economy would be if he did nothing or something else. Mind you, I'm not a fan of his bailouts... but frankly, seems every president besides Clinton has been expanding the debt, increasing spending, blah blah blah. It is entirely conceiveable that he could increase debt while helping the country. Time will tell.

We've been a debtor nation with large foreign ownership long before Obama stepped into office. To pretend this is a unique characteristic to him is silly. Business as usual.

I agree. Its why you're attributing this to Obama that is a mystery. This damage has been happening for decades before Obama got into office.

More people get healthcare? Socialism, like any system, has good parts and bad parts. The country will never be entirely socialistic. While socialistic programs have existed for longer then you or I have been alive. But hearing you rant and rave about how scared you are of socialism should be funny. I don't know what you think the answer to your own question is. But I'm sure its a doozy!

Is it..... EVIL?!??! If only the American Public had the eye for evil that you do? Unfortuately, they're blindsided by their desire for medical care. Fools! Do they want to get the kind of access to health care our legistlators get?

I remember when a friend of mine was working in England. She told me how she got really sick, went to the doctor, got examined and prescribed the necessary medication needed to treat it.... and then left with no bill. She said it was pleasant and very professional. I'm sure if you read between the lines she meant to say "evil."

I'm right with you that the government has been too obtrusive and attacks American's rights. But again... to lay this at Obama's feet is silly. Bush was easily the worse I've seen. Though throughout history, you can pick any decade, I'm sure you can easily find stories of govt. abuse of human rights.

The problem with you post is that you are laying everything at the feet of Obama when everything you mentioned has happened before him and, quite often, worse. Your pretending that all of this is what makes Obama different is very funny.

quite a number of the founders would disagree with you.

what's the difference. Most christians support christians that attack anyone else.

If there is no difference, then where is the Christian Bin Laden?

I swear to god, Pletho MUST be a level, right? Right??? No one can be this obtuse.

He bought a house in Dallas, Tx, after he left office. Zing!

---

Obviously if you support someone, you won't view them as the Christian Bin Laden, even though the non-Christian world will see them as someone who is killing / waging war and justifying it with their religious beliefs.

Yes of course, as do many Jews Im sure. The problem is that there is an element within the Islamic faithful that means to do great harm to western civilization. Namely, blow them up and stuff. Radical Muslims are the problem, so when we see people putting Islam before America, it of course raises concerns.

Btw, western europe has a real problem here. During the past decades when Bush was seen as Hitler and the evil american empire is seen as spearing muslim children with bayonets and what not, millions upon millions of Muslims have emigrated to places like France. Fine, but amoung those people are those who would do everyone harm. Its a real problem. Someone has to sort out the maniacs from the normal peaceable Muslims, or **** will continue to get blown up.

Ummm.... any US leader who has initiated attacks, started wars...

From what I've read, we also have Christian Americans who support policies in the Middle East that will lead to war because its related to what they believe has been prophesized preceding Jesus's return.

But... not even sure why Bin Laden is important. For starters, he's really more of a leader of a terrorist group then a religious leader. Second, the 'Christian' US govt was in bed with him when it served their purposes. According to some, Bin Laden and Al Queda is the product of the CIA. So... our good Christian nation has a strong history of supporting blood thirsty killers.

And I believe most of our country rallied around Bush's wars which he talked about being a mission from God.

So... still struggling to see the difference.

This has been debated since his/her arrival. To understand the difficulty of knowing the truth allows us to segway to Poe's Law-

from rational wiki -

FYP

Take away religion and a lot of the rational for war and terrorism goes away. The battles between Christians and Moslims is nothing new. And its easy to paint the Muslims as the current bad guy but we can look all throughout history... at some point its Christians slaughtering Muslims or Jews... Perhaps we can point fingers at early Mormons who slaughtered innocent people and blamed it on the Indians?

I think you set your sites to low singling out Muslims.

Pletho is not much different than the other Christians in this forum. He's just a little dumber and more obnoxious, which is why people notice him more.

The reason I brought up Bin Laden is this: Just about every American that doesn't hate this country hates Bin Laden. I almost never see Americans that support him. On the other hand, I constantly run into Americans that support Bush and his wars. This is one reason why the comment "I am a Muslim first and an American second" from a radical Muslim will be perceived differently in this country than "I am a Christian first and an American second."

People rallied around his wars because Americans were killed by terrorists, and because they believed his nonsense about the weapons of mass destruction. Also, there were a lot of Bush supporters that seemed to believe anything that came out of his mouth when he argued for going to war. I don't see what this part has to do with religion.

In short, when he said "I am a Muslim first," he was implying that he supported Muslims that attack Americans. Americans that say "I am a Christian first" are usually not making that implication.

Ha. I'm already laughing... I really laughed at your qualifier "every american that doesn't hate this country" because it sounds like we're walking into dittohead territory. I don't think I'm met any American who hates this country. The idea that there are huge patches of american's hating their country is a fiction in the mind of some people I suspect aren't too bright.

The fact that people hate Bin Laden when he's the leader of a terrorist organization that targets americans is hardly suprising. Yet it has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

What's more relevent is that there are likely billions of Muslims who don't support Bin Laden.

Exactly. Because Bush is a good Christian. You're making my point for me.

I think its nonsense regardless of which theist is saying it.

That's irrelevant. The Muslim we're talking about not only supports terrorist attacks, he just shot several Americans.

Whether Bush is a good Christian is irrelevant. The point is that Americans get upset when someone implies that they support attacks on Americans. Hence people would get upset when they find out a terrorist said "I am a Muslim first and an American second."

I would guess the majority of American Muslims would do the same with regards to the Koran, to be honest. Especially those who are not first generation immigrants.

Most likely true. Slightly less % since many are first generation or very close. Hard to say, I lived in Dearborn Michigan for about 12 years and didn't know the Muslim community that well. Some of them clearly practiced similar to what would be expected in Jordan/Syria/Lebanon afaik etc and others did not.

They're hiding in plan site in the Christian identity movements.

I think I am many things before I am an american. A theoretical physicist/poker player/algebraist etc. I guess its ok since very few americans perceive themselves to be at war with any of those.

I appreciate this post. It really drives home how pointless it is to try to have a rational discussion with the atheists on this site.

I am not sure if you are a believer but if you are you are smarter than I according to this as if it really matters. But we are all dumb.... LOL!

Yes...

Is a Christian though more likely to do the exact same thing out of the same motivation? Probably not.
Is a Christian likely to do any crap instead that a muslim is less likely to do, (like bombing IRAN)...Probably yes?!


are you trying to say people are irrational, *stupid* and level 1- non-reflective ?
Are you trying to say that we´ll prolly get a whole bunch of new *protective* laws... ?

you´re longer than me in this world, but even for me this is old news.
Its not rocket science.

this OP is imo fail. Simplicity- and stating the obv fail.

All I know is that a lot of them were sainted.

Home of the fighting deer, if I'm not mistaken.

Why limit it to religion? Whats so different about saying "I am a [insert vhawk's surname here] first and an American second (or 34th)?"