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"Father, forgive them..." "Father, forgive them..."

08-16-2011 , 12:15 AM
I was wondering, if Jesus pleaded with GOD ( and I know, I know, there will be Christians here who will disagree if Jesus is God or God and Jesus are not the same being, etc, but let's not get into this), to forgive all those who caused the pain and suffering to Jesus and did not believe him , then can a case be done for Jesus/God to forgive all the non believers today and let them enter heaven? I mean if Jesus claims that those people are just unaware of what the truth is then they should be forgiven, then why nonbelievers who supposedly are unaware of the truth of the bible (as Christians claim) should not be forgiven and spared form hell?

Let's make an example..

Billy a 34 year old is an atheist, he thinks bible is a bunch of nonsense. According to Jesus Billy does not know what he is doing. Will his "ignorance"(let's assume that Christians are correct) be forgiven by GOD?

I also have an issue with time and belief. What if Billy is in a period of time when he is confused about his beliefs and decides that he does not believe in GOD. Unfortunately he gets hit by a car and dies , does he go to hell? If not for that accident maybe Billy would have come across of some information that would have changed his mind in 10 years from now and he would have become a believer then he would end up in hell.

So how does GOD deal with this? People change their beliefs many times during their lifetime, what if they are in the wrong time at the wrong place? Are they going to hell because of that? Some of you could say that maybe GOD knew that he wouldn't change his mind so it wouldn't matter, if that's the case and God knows the future decisions of people then why not spare their pain and their existence in the first place, why create them if you know they will end up in hell? Doesn't this type of creation sound evil to you? Creating someone and knowing in advance that they will "fail the test" and endure eternal torment?
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08-16-2011 , 08:48 AM
The men who made up Christianity weren't able to think long term enough when they wrote the bible. Or maybe they did, but didn't care because their main concern was power and control while they were alive. The long term viability of the religion they made up was much lower down on their priority list.

In order to control people's behavior, they felt like they had to give them the hope of an afterlife. It has been quite effective, but unfortunately for them, it completely contradicts the characteristics of the god they made up.

If we just go off of lines they gave Jesus (forgiveness, sharing, etc) then everyone will be forgiven when they die. The god they made up would not punish someone he created just because they couldn't believe something to be true due to lack of evidence.
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08-16-2011 , 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by gskowal
I was wondering, if .....?
God doesn't make any mistakes, if he punishes, it will be appropriate and if he rewards, it will be appropriate. No one will ever be able to argue vs God's judgment and God's do's und undo's.
And as far as I know, in the bible just like in the Koran it is written: Till the judgment day, no one will know who is going to hell or to heaven but God.
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08-16-2011 , 11:51 AM
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Originally Posted by shahrad
God doesn't make any mistakes, if he punishes, it will be appropriate and if he rewards, it will be appropriate. No one will ever be able to argue vs God's jujdment and God's do's und undo's.
If you take the bible as a guide on what god has done or hasnt done, then lots of people have argued very successfully vs gods judgement
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08-16-2011 , 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by neeeel
If you take the bible as a guide on what god has done or hasnt done, then lots of people have argued very successfully vs gods judgement
A child might think he has argued very well, but parents know better. Once in the free university of Berlin I had an examen, I thought I have done very well, but my Professor did know better.
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08-16-2011 , 11:57 AM
Quote:
I mean if Jesus claims that those people are just unaware of what the truth is then they should be forgiven, then why nonbelievers who supposedly are unaware of the truth of the bible (as Christians claim) should not be forgiven and spared form hell?
What about nonbelievers who KNOW its the truth but reject it?
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08-16-2011 , 12:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahrad
A child might think he has argued very well, but parents know better. Once in the free university of Berlin I had an examen, I thought I have done very well, but my Professor did know better.
Did your professor send to you hell?
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08-16-2011 , 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by kb coolman
Did your professor send to you hell?
Kinda! I had to retake my course.
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08-16-2011 , 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Blitzkreger
What about nonbelievers who KNOW its the truth but reject it?
If a nonbeliever knows Yahweh is real then hes not a nonbeliever.
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08-16-2011 , 01:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahrad
God doesn't make any mistakes, if he punishes, it will be appropriate and if he rewards, it will be appropriate.
I don't think anyone clearly thinking would say that someone should be tormented in hell for eternity just because they "incorrectly thought God does not exist". Even we don't punish people in jails that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shahrad
No one will ever be able to argue vs God's judgment and God's do's und undo's.
So you're saying God is like this big dictator and everyone has to sit quiet?
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08-16-2011 , 01:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gskowal
I don't think anyone clearly thinking would say that someone should be tormented in hell for eternity just because they "incorrectly thought God does not exist". Even we don't punish people in jails that way.
Regarding what god does or not, your opinion and ofc mine are irrelevant. We lack of proper knowledge.
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08-16-2011 , 01:51 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahrad
Regarding what god does or not, your opinion and ofc mine are irrelevant. We lack of proper knowledge.

Yet you seem to think that you know a lot about god, what he does, what he thinks, and why he does what he does?
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08-16-2011 , 01:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gskowal

So you're saying God is like this big dictator and everyone has to sit quiet?
You don't need to sit quiet. What he does will be fair, you will sit quiet cause he will not make a mistake, not because you are disabled arguing. You can not argue cause his judgment will be legit, just and proper.
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08-16-2011 , 01:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahrad
You don't need to sit quiet. What he does will be fair, you will sit quiet cause he will not make a mistake, not because you are disabled arguing. You can not argue cause his judgment will be legit, just and proper.
Nah that doesn't work like that, just because he is in control it doesn't mean he isn't wrong. Clearly there are hundreds of things he has done wrongfully as described in the bible.
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08-16-2011 , 02:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahrad
Regarding what god does or not, your opinion and ofc mine are irrelevant. We lack of proper knowledge.
I can observe the world around me and I see he has abandoned his creation.
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08-16-2011 , 02:15 PM
Ofc you observe the world around you and you might think this way or another way. But your judment is as proper as your knowledge and your knowledge is limited.
Example: Imagine me and you around 2000 years ago enter the home of someone and see this guy is sleeping. Now I take an axe and cut off his hand. You would think what an a*** I am. But what if I could smell cancer like a dog and did the only thing what could save his life? You did think , I am an a**** but your problem was, you did lack of proper knowledge.
So it is with the bible and your observations, your ability to judge is limited. You can evaluate it, but you can never be sure if your evaluation is proper or not.
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08-16-2011 , 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by neeeel
Yet you seem to think that you know a lot about god, what he does, what he thinks, and why he does what he does?
I only use my logic. The word "God" implies "perfectness". Now my logic says: What is perfect, doesn't make mistakes, otherwise we wouldn't call it perfect. With other words: If God wouldn't be a perfect judge, we wouldn't call him God.
The requirement to be a perfect judge is: having absolute (perfect) knowledge. As long as we lack of absolute knowledge, we can not evaluate his judgment.
If my logic fails, you might help me to correct it. If not than you might once agree with me.

Last edited by shahrad; 08-16-2011 at 02:44 PM.
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08-16-2011 , 02:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahrad
Ofc you observe the world around you and you might think this way or another way. But your judment is as proper as your knowledge and your knowledge is limited.
Example: Imagine me and you around 2000 years ago enter the home of someone and see this guy is sleeping. Now I take an axe and cut off his hand. You would think what an a*** I am. But what if I could smell cancer like a dog and did the only thing what could save his life? You did think , I am an a**** but your problem was, you did lack of proper knowledge.
So it is with the bible and your observations, your ability to judge is limited. You can evaluate it, but you can never be sure if your evaluation is proper or not.
What a ridiculous statement. You're saying that all the disasters, torture, genocide, etc. that's happened over time (in your analogy, cutting off our hand) is all for our own good and to protect from an even worse fate.

Imagine a world similar to ours where we know god doesn't intervene with it. Then explain to me how it would look any different with the one we live in.
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08-16-2011 , 03:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Alchemist
What a ridiculous statement. You're saying that all the disasters, torture, genocide, etc. that's happened over time (in your analogy, cutting off our hand) is all for our own good and to protect from an even worse fate.
My claim was not this, I did give an example to clear my claim.
My claim/thesis was: We cannot properly judge about do's and undo's of something what has more knowledge than we do.
The word 'God' implies absolute knowledge.
Conclusion: We cannot properly judge about his do's and undo's.
Another claim/thesis of mine was:
The word 'God' implies perfectness. A perfect being doesn't make any mistakes.
So if God passes judgment about someone, his judgement will be perfect. As it is perfect, it will be undisputable.

Last edited by shahrad; 08-16-2011 at 03:13 PM.
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08-16-2011 , 03:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahrad
My claim was not this, I did give an example to clear my claim.
My claim/thesis was: We cannot properly judge about do's and undo's of something what has more knowledge than we do.
The word 'God' implies absolute knowledge.
Conclusion: We cannot judge about his do's and undo's.
Another calim of mine was:
The word 'God' implies perfectness. A perfect being doesn't make any mistakes.
So if God passes judgment about someone, his judgement will be perfect. As it is perfect, it will be undisputable.
So I am confident that I am not going to hell then since I'm pretty sure someone with ultimate knowledge wouldn't torture someone just because they didn't believe in him. That would be very immature and evil, since you claim your GOD is not evil then I as an atheist am not going to hell for sure!!!

Last edited by gskowal; 08-16-2011 at 03:21 PM.
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08-16-2011 , 03:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shahrad
You don't need to sit quiet. What he does will be fair, you will sit quiet cause he will not make a mistake, not because you are disabled arguing. You can not argue cause his judgment will be legit, just and proper.

But when you think about it. The only claim we have of his perfection comes from himself. Surely we shouldn't believe he is perfect soley on his say-so?
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08-16-2011 , 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Sommerset
But when you think about it. The only claim we have of his perfection comes from himself. Surely we shouldn't believe he is perfect soley on his say-so?
I don't know if the first part is right or not, about the second part I can only say: It seems, God is not a dictator. He lets you say, believe and think however you wish to.
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08-16-2011 , 03:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gskowal
So I am confident that I am not going to hell then since I'm pretty sure someone with ultimate knowledge wouldn't torture someone just because they didn't believe in him. That would be very immature and evil, since you claim your GOD is not evil then I as an atheist am not going to hell for sure!!!
I mean this with respect... it doesn't matter what we believe because it doesn't change the reality. For example man used to believe the world was flat and that belief didn't change the reality. You need to seek the truth for yourself because no human being can tell you for sure that you're going to Heaven or Hell.
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08-16-2011 , 03:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gskowal
So I am confident that I am not going to hell then since I'm pretty sure someone with ultimate knowledge wouldn't torture someone just because they didn't believe in him. That would be very immature and evil, since you claim your GOD is not evil then I as an atheist am not going to hell for sure!!!
gl
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08-16-2011 , 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Conrad84
I mean this with respect... it doesn't matter what we believe because it doesn't change the reality.
This is refreshing to hear.
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