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12-06-2012 , 10:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
What do you mean "cannot be used to deduce that creationism..."? This seems muddled to me.

I mean that that the empirical data discovered has nothing to do with a god or when/how/if he created creatures, so it is unreasonable to say that it points in that direction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
It is not any one individual piece of empirical data it is when you look at all of the data as a whole. Just like there is no slam dunk piece of data for common decent. If you want to look at one piece of data I would point to the laws of physics.

This is the crux of it I think. What is it about the laws of physics that makes God more reasonable than not-God?
[QUOTE=Jibninjas;36088266]
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12-06-2012 , 10:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sommerset
I mean that that the empirical data discovered has nothing to do with a god or when/how/if he created creatures, so it is unreasonable to say that it points in that direction
Care to elaborate on this? In our example of the fused chromosome it was never about it having nothing to do with god as an explanation, but that that piece of data is better explained by CD than creationism (insofar as creationism is used in this context). You seem to be inserting an unsupported claim.


Quote:
This is the crux of it I think. What is it about the laws of physics that makes God more reasonable than not-God?
This is not the crux of the conversation as the conversation was about whether or not abductive reasoning was a viable tool in determining whether god exists.
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12-07-2012 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas

This is not the crux of the conversation as the conversation was about whether or not abductive reasoning was a viable tool in determining whether god exists.
I agree that abductive reasoning could be used, in principle, to make an argument for god being the best explanation for something. Some questions:

1) Do you agree with the list of explanatory virtues I posted upthread?
2) Is there something which you think is best explained by the existence of a god and, if so, what is it?
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12-07-2012 , 04:04 PM
I want to hear the answer to 2 as well.
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12-07-2012 , 07:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
I agree that abductive reasoning could be used, in principle, to make an argument for god being the best explanation for something. Some questions:

1) Do you agree with the list of explanatory virtues I posted upthread?
2) Is there something which you think is best explained by the existence of a god and, if so, what is it?
1) Yes
2)This is really for another thread. Short answer is that there are many things that are best explained by the existence of God and you need to look at them as a whole, not as just as individual.
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12-07-2012 , 07:46 PM
I'd still love just a shortlist, for my own purposes. Maybe PM?
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12-07-2012 , 07:47 PM
no not PM

edit: Jib maybe you can start this thread when you have a chance or provide a brief outline here
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12-07-2012 , 08:30 PM
I don't know that I have time for a thread. Off the top of my head a list of things that are best explained by the existence of God are Laws of Physics, Life, the Universe (as in its' mere existence), morality, and consciousness.
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12-07-2012 , 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
I agree that abductive reasoning could be used, in principle, to make an argument for god being the best explanation for something
How would that go? My criticism of abductive reasoning is that it gets us started but doesn't make an argument for any actual conclusion - it suggests which will be more profitable to explore.

Can you give me an example of abductive reasoning actually establishing (or even just supporting) some proposition?

I'm looking for something where the conclusion seems more plausible, after abductive reasoning than it did before.
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12-07-2012 , 09:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jibninjas
I don't know that I have time for a thread. Off the top of my head a list of things that are best explained by the existence of God are Laws of Physics, Life, the Universe (as in its' mere existence), morality, and consciousness.
Thanks

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
How would [an abductive argument for god as best explanation of some phenonema] go?
Very poorly in practise, imo.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny

My criticism of abductive reasoning is that it gets us started but doesn't make an argument for any actual conclusion - it suggests which will be more profitable to explore.

Can you give me an example of abductive reasoning actually establishing (or even just supporting) some proposition?

I'm looking for something where the conclusion seems more plausible, after abductive reasoning than it did before.
Sure...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Say we have two competing hypotheses: Intelligent Design versus the modern evolutionary synthesis. How do we decide between them?

We don't use deduction: both theories are internally consistent. We can't really use induction--famously, Intelligent Design has almost no empirical predictions. So what is our basis for preferring the modern evolutionary synthesis?

I would say it is abduction. That is, we have developed certain criteria that we think are characteristic of good explanations--things such as simplicity, scope, testability, and the other things zumby mentioned. When we compare these two theories to see which of them exhibit more of the virtues of a good explanation, the evolutionary theory is a clear winner. And thus, we accept it as the better theory.

Last edited by zumby; 12-07-2012 at 09:13 PM.
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12-07-2012 , 09:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
Can you give me an example of abductive reasoning actually establishing (or even just supporting) some proposition?

I'm looking for something where the conclusion seems more plausible, after abductive reasoning than it did before.
Sure...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
Say we have two competing hypotheses: Intelligent Design versus the modern evolutionary synthesis. How do we decide between them?

We don't use deduction: both theories are internally consistent. We can't really use induction--famously, Intelligent Design has almost no empirical predictions. So what is our basis for preferring the modern evolutionary synthesis?

I would say it is abduction. That is, we have developed certain criteria that we think are characteristic of good explanations--things such as simplicity, scope, testability, and the other things zumby mentioned. When we compare these two theories to see which of them exhibit more of the virtues of a good explanation, the evolutionary theory is a clear winner. And thus, we accept it as the better theory.
This isnt actually what I meant (unless we came up with evolutionary theory without applying those criteria and then decided to take another look once ID came on the scene).

Evolutionary theory was constructed precisely to have the traits you've outlined as being part of abductive reasoning. It doesnt therefore lend any support to its veracity to point out that it meets those criteria.

I would argue that perhaps general relativity is a good example of where abductive reasoning was applied - Einstein extended the special theory of relativity (which was necessary to resolve various observed issues with classical electromagnetic theory) pretty much based on mathematical 'neatness' and a desire for unification/simplification of physical laws. Having done so, there wasnt any actual reason to think it was correct - just a good reason to sail to the pacific and watch a solar eclipse. After that empirical research was done, the truth of the theory was much better supported.
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12-07-2012 , 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
I might just be misinterpreting you, but it seems to me that you are misrepresenting the proposed role of abduction in theory choice (at least, you are certainly de-emphasizing its importance in a way I disagree with). It doesn't add new evidence (but then, neither does deduction). Nor is it only relevant for coming up with hypotheses. What it does is make more explicit the criteria we use to decide between theories. Say we have two competing hypotheses: Intelligent Design versus the modern evolutionary synthesis. How do we decide between them?

We don't use deduction: both theories are internally consistent. We can't really use induction--famously, Intelligent Design has almost no empirical predictions. So what is our basis for preferring the modern evolutionary synthesis?

I would say it is abduction. That is, we have developed certain criteria that we think are characteristic of good explanations--things such as simplicity, scope, testability, and the other things zumby mentioned. When we compare these two theories to see which of them exhibit more of the virtues of a good explanation, the evolutionary theory is a clear winner. And thus, we accept it as the better theory.

Now, this isn't a proof (in the deductive sense) that Evolution is true and Intelligent Design is false. It could certainly be the case that what seems to us to be the better explanation is in fact false (an example of this would be the geocentric theory in ancient times). But it does give us a good reason to accept one theory over another.
Sure - and the reason the IDers dont accept it (and in fact claim theirs is better or "abductively reasoned") is because they use differing criteria. We have no recourse other than to declare they are applying the standards incorrectly - once we start demonstrating that logically or calling on further experimental support for our position/interpretation we are back to deduction and inference. (Where we belong).

When I said "seems reasonable to me" I wasnt suggesting all these criteria arent applied. I was suggesting that the way we weight them, which ones take precedence and even whether they are satisfied is inherently subjective (I've heard theists say God is a simplifying explanation, for example). The extent to which we can determine these things is as far as deduction and inference will take us.

Without empirical/rational testing of the competing hypotheses, there is nothing objective about which of the plethora of "hypotheses people find reasonable" should be preferred. We can doubt IDers are being honest, of course. But that's not really going to get us anywhere.

The number plate example is illustrative of the problem, I think. As is General Relativity. Remember that this came up in asking for support of a proposition's truth - I would very much like to see an explicit abductive argument for the truth of some proposition where (without any further empirical/rational test) the claim becomes more reasonable after the argument is presented.

I havent seen one.
Quote:
Now, it is true that abduction can also act as a spur on to more empirical work. We might think that a hypothesis is simple and elegant, but has little empirical support. If it were competing with another hypothesis that is less simple and elegant, but with greater empirical support, we have a dilemma. One way to resolve the dilemma is to seek for more empirical support for the more elegant hypothesis.
I dont think abductive reasoning is used in this 'compare the hypotheses' way. (That's certainly not the way I was introduced to it twentyish years ago). Why bother when we have empirical testing?
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12-07-2012 , 10:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
I might just be misinterpreting you, but it seems to me that you are misrepresenting the proposed role of abduction in theory choice (at least, you are certainly de-emphasizing its importance in a way I disagree with). It doesn't add new evidence (but then, neither does deduction). Nor is it only relevant for coming up with hypotheses. What it does is make more explicit the criteria we use to decide between theories. Say we have two competing hypotheses: Intelligent Design versus the modern evolutionary synthesis. How do we decide between them?

We don't use deduction: both theories are internally consistent. We can't really use induction--famously, Intelligent Design has almost no empirical predictions. So what is our basis for preferring the modern evolutionary synthesis?

I would say it is abduction. That is, we have developed certain criteria that we think are characteristic of good explanations--things such as simplicity, scope, testability, and the other things zumby mentioned. When we compare these two theories to see which of them exhibit more of the virtues of a good explanation, the evolutionary theory is a clear winner. And thus, we accept it as the better theory.

Now, this isn't a proof (in the deductive sense) that Evolution is true and Intelligent Design is false. It could certainly be the case that what seems to us to be the better explanation is in fact false (an example of this would be the geocentric theory in ancient times). But it does give us a good reason to accept one theory over another.
The bolded is something I was groping towards as a theist (as I mentioned above) so it's possible I'll end up changing my mind on this. Nonetheless, this is the heart of my derision - I dispute that the bolded is true. I think it may be emotively compelling, but is not rationally so.

I also think you're at risk of muddling empiricism/rationality in to the evaluation in this way (which is how I think things actually are - we just dont come to a conclusion in the case where abduction is all we have). It's hard to imagine someone declaring one theory superior on the grounds of testability, predictive power, etcetera without an implicit view that it has actually cleared some empirical hurdles in those areas.

In my view, if this kind of "abductive reasoning" is what is occurring then it is making my point - they used abduction to come up with the hypothesis, went and tested it and got all excited because it seemed accurate. Then come back and say "Hey my theory's better on abductive grounds!"
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12-07-2012 , 11:07 PM
This problem of needing empirical grounds for justifying the premise of an abductive argument... how is that different from an inductive or deductive argument?

1) All men are mortal
2) Socrates is a man
3) Therefore Socrates is mortal

That fact that we still need to go out into the world and empirically test P1 doesn't make deduction merely a method for forming a hypothesis...
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12-07-2012 , 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
1) All men are mortal
2) Socrates is a man
3) Therefore Socrates is mortal

That fact that we still need to go out into the world and empirically test P1 doesn't make deduction merely a method for forming a hypothesis...
True. And, on its own, the deductive argument you posted gives us no reason to accept the proposition "Socrates is mortal".
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12-07-2012 , 11:20 PM
Deduction is another means for testing hypotheses. You start with premises you believe to be true (axiomatically, as conclusions of other arguments or based on empirical observations) and see whether the conclusion whose truth you cant directly observe follows from those accepted premises.
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12-07-2012 , 11:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by LEMONZEST
I had wondered though if an argument could be made that, since as a general rule the addition of any proposition to a set of axioms will usually result in an inconsistent set of axioms* - it therefore followed that, if the addition of an axiom results in no observed inconsistency, we have evidence that the new axiom is indeed true (or at least can be taken to be so). I hadnt convinced myself, but it seemed to me there might be an argument to be made.

* I dont know if this is, in fact true (or even meaningful) but it seemed reasonable to me (irony noted).


Bunny,

I don't follow what you are saying in the bolded above.
I meant that, given the truth of this:

1. Any consistent set of axioms will usually* be made inconsistent by the addition of another
*I dont know if this is true or not and stopped thinking about it - as I said, it seems reasonable to me...*cough*...abductively, I guess.

One could perhaps conclude that, if the addition of some new axiom (like God exists) doesnt result in an observable contradiction - we are therefore justified in accepting it.

EDIT: I should stress it was a passing thought I had. I never really fleshed it out with any sort of rigor.
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12-08-2012 , 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny

I dont think abductive reasoning is used in this 'compare the hypotheses' way. (That's certainly not the way I was introduced to it twentyish years ago).
Case closed?
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12-08-2012 , 04:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
Case closed?
I wrote a little more than that comment. The point of that remark was to clearly articulate points of difference, not to advance an argument.

I was asking Original Position why, when faced with two competing hypotheses, we wouldn't settle the question empirically?
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12-08-2012 , 04:27 PM
Just kidding around, chap.

Tbh, I'm not following your critique of abductive reasoning at all, so I'm pretty much waiting for OrP to chime in again as he's pretty good at getting to the charitable reading of people's arguments.
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12-08-2012 , 04:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by zumby
I'm not following your critique of abductive reasoning at all
The existence of an abductive argument doesn't constitute evidence for the propositions truth.

Every time one is proposed, empirical observation or rational argument is smuggled in to do the actual work.
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12-08-2012 , 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
The existence of an abductive argument doesn't constitute evidence for the propositions truth.

Every time one is proposed, empirical observation or rational argument is smuggled in to do the actual work.
Do you mean evidence or do you mean proof here?
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12-08-2012 , 04:38 PM
Evidence.
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12-08-2012 , 05:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bunny
I wrote a little more than that comment. The point of that remark was to clearly articulate points of difference, not to advance an argument.

I was asking Original Position why, when faced with two competing hypotheses, we wouldn't settle the question empirically?
What does it mean to settle something empirically?
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12-08-2012 , 05:52 PM
The empirical support in favour of the two hypotheses is unlikely to be exactly the same, so we usually have empirical grounds for preferring one to the other.
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