Yes.
What are my choices?
Explain "Poker God".

Not possible. Your definition of belief includes an irrational reliance on an implausable work of fiction. We have no common, rational, frame of reference.

I am not aware of anything that I fear.

And I honestly don't believe you.

I don't know. I do know that I couldn't choose to believe the things you believe. It would require some drastic alteration of my world. And I don't believe you when you say you could stop believing the things you believe, and start believing other things.

Yes, it's possible. But why does one say crap and the other masterpiece? Assuming the onlookers are educated in art, they'll be able to say why crap and why masterpiece. So given that it's because of A,B,C that Adam likes the artwork, and because of X,Y,Z that Bill hates it, did they 'decide' to like or to dislike it? Did I choose to dislike onions?

Well, firstly, no need for the snivelling martytr act, I've never used any of those terms to describe you - even though you're seven pages deep in a thread where you've made some very large claims and backed them up with nothing. Secondly, it's high time you showed us all what your special knowledge is of this concept which seems so banal and trivial to you.

Still waiting for something more than a claim.

This is where Pletho will ask you to get on Skype so that he can teach you.

Oh really? You have no fear whatsoever? Or at least you have no fear that you know of? You must be a perfect human being.

I see now that my conversations with the majority of you, meaning atheist have been all just a game.

So I guess I will choose not to play anymore. If all in Flynn is playing a game with me also then I will find out soon.

Enjoy my silence to you.....

Pletho

oh thank you enlightened one! This is the greatest gift of all...

I do agree that I am incorrect to resort to petty insults, but everyone of us can stumble at times.

Good day to you sir. Good day!

I don't have Skype, but I'll drop a few bucks if he'll PM me his number.

Fear is an emotional state. If we fear something, it's because we believe something - say, a monster is under the bed. The belief is necessary in order for the fear to exist. See? They're separate. And while a condition of chronic fear might cause someone to 'create' beliefs (as in superstition), this still doesn't feel voluntary in any meaningful sense.

But I don't. And I don't feel as though I could choose to. And again, I don't believe you when you say you could choose not to believe.

Well, I sense a sidetrack looming, but the effects of fear and jealousy, etc, are far from universally negative. I'll just pre-emptively grant that large doses of these emotions with no justification in the real world is, generally, a Bad Thing.

'Trust' is an interesting one, because as a synonym it itself has a couple of distinct senses that are or may be analagous. If I 'trust' you, this means that I think you're honest, unthreatening. Suppose we were in a situation where I had to rely on you but wasn't sure I could, and you told me 'trust me.' Is this a command to literally change my state of mind? Or would you just be telling me to behave in a manner consistent with trusting you?

See, this is exactly what I think. But here you are claiming you can fly.

OK, so tell me The Secret, then.

Alastair Crowley actually did some interesting writings on "choosing" to change your political and religious beliefs. He believed it would be a sign of a higher level of consciousness to be able to change those seemingly indelible aspects of your personality.

My brother, a huge fan of Crowley's work, went from being a registered communist who voted democrat and had huge problems with authority to being a Ron Paul supporter who joined the Navy. I believe this was in no small part due to our family's financial problems at the time and his dissatisfaction with his life's work (or lack thereof) and he DECIDED to change his personal and political views.

Personally, after I had my first religious experience at the age of fourteen I said to myself "if I was in Saudi Arabia right now, I'd be a devout Muslim, and if I was in Japan, I'd probably believe in Buddhism or Shintoism" Not only did I choose to believe what I felt, I chose to believe in Christianity after a careful examination of other major (and some minor) world religions.

I'm not really sure what you're saying here - the first part seems to imply no choice ('If I was in Saudi Arabia...') but then, suddenly, you did choose.

And in looking back through the thread there's a pretty clear division forming: believers seem mostly to feel believing was a voluntary choice, unbelievers seem not to feel that way. Interesting.

Yes.
Not that I am aware of.
Correct.
Why?

Let me elaborate. Fear, to me, is an emotion which prevents someone from doing something -- that which they fear, or it the belief in the likelihood or possibility of something happening for which they are afraid.

Some people fear flying, so they do not fly, or are in a frightened state when they do.

Some people fear drowning, so they do not swim.

Some people fear mice, snakes, or spiders, and run away if they see one.

I also believe fear is different than being startled, or temporarily panicked.

I have turned on the light in my basement and seen a mouse run across the floor several feet in front of me. I was startled, but I do not fear mice. Nor do I "fear" it is going to happen every time I turn on the light.

I have had a huge black spider drop on a web from the ceiling 6-inches in front of my nose. I was a bit startled, I perhaps even panicked for moment. But, I do not fear spiders, and I am not constantly looking up at the ceiling because I fear it happening again.

So, again, based on my understanding of the word, I am not aware of anything that I fear.

I find this quite sad. It shows you have no respect for, nor desire to understand, anyone with a belief system different than yours.

Ok.

Skype is free to download, it is better than msn and yahoo messenger. You can talk via headset and chat also you can send files instantly....

So sure, I would much rather discuss this where we would not get interrupted by non serious people who really aren't interested. Go ahead and download it P.M. me your skype handle and I will chat with you on skype, it might be good also to get a cheap set of earphones with a mic. We can actually discuss things like normal people then....


Pletho

No hard feelings if your belief system is different than mine thats alright by me, believe it or not, I am merely trying to share what Believing is from a biblical standpoint, so it is actaully MOOT to any one who does not believe in the bible or the integrity of the bible as a reference for truth and enlightenment...

Just had to add this one last thing before complete silence....

Pletho

Well, not that there's anything 'normal' about arranging a discussion like this, but OK. If I can get it to work without buying any gear (I have access to a mike and a pair of earphones, but not a combo headset), I'll PM you my handle in a few days and I guess we'll chat then. I assume you're American, don't worry - I work hours more in line with your schedule than Europe. I'll want to record the call, if I can manage it - I assume that's no problem.

I am not sure how this will work, my definitions of words are biblically based and yours are not, so we may just waste our time. Which I am not really wanting to do. As for recording the call? Why would you want to record the call? I mean other than for entertainment purposes?

Pletho

At least you foresee what this conversation will end up being... I sense some honesty in you for once. File under comedy... this could even be a viral hit and you will end up like the Chocolate Rain guy.

My hopes of 'converting' you are, frankly, non-existent. I just want to understand what you're thinking.

I take notes. Not that there's anything wrong with entertainment.

Makes perfect sense...
Wait, what? But...er...you just said...
So, I mean, did he DECIDE to have financial problems and dissatisfaction with his life's work, too?
Did you CHOOSE to have your first religious experience? Because it sure seems like THAT is what led you to Christianity. That plus the contingencies of your birth. Neither of which seem to be much under your control, or at least, they certainly dont seem to be under mine, in my life.

Hardly surprising, though. Believers tend to be pretty proud of their belief, and when you are proud of something, you tend to overestimate your role and underestimate the role of chance in bringing that about. Most of the atheists on this forum tend to be the type that arent particularly PROUD of or thrilled about their lack of belief (although they might be pretty thrilled they arent a certain type of theist) so they are much more receptive to the role of chance.

If you polled the "bad" kind of atheist, I'm sure you'd find many more who talked about how they were so smart and capable that they CHOSE to throw of the shackles of belief in God.

I assume you asking if there is free will, is belief a choice? Obviously if you deny that there is a free will, the question of whether belief is a choice is not very interesting.

Maybe this will be something new to discuss:

There is a fairly common theme, at least in many Christian churches, that belief requires practice. One manifestation of this is simply going to church. If someone makes the effort to get up instead of sleeping in on Sundays, say, then his belief will strengthen. I think this makes intuitive sense that there is a correlation: those who sleep through services tend to drift away from the church, those who make an effort to attend every service possible tend to be fairly strong members of the church.

If you accept that there is a choice involved in whether someone forces himself to get up and go to church even though they are tired and want to sleep in -- and I assume you do accept this if you accept that we have free will -- then the only missing link is to show the causality in the correct direction.

Again, intuitively I think the causality in that direction (not getting up in the morning causes belief to wane) makes sense. But likely it needs more discussion.

I failed to make this clear in the OP, and have paid for that error on every page since. It seems there are throngs of people in this forum who are absolutely ripping to debate free will. I'm not one of them.

So difficult to say what I mean here. I think there must be a desire to believe. Putting 'effort' into 'achieving' belief will, if the goal seems desireable enough, give you a positive feeling of accomplishment. But there must be a tipping-point, some minimal degree of belief before the 'strenthening' of belief can seem desireable, no?

You fall down somewhat here, I think. Those who sleep through services would, I assume, tend to have lesser faith than those who make the effort. It would obviously follow that drifting away would be more common among the sleepers. It's a chicken-egg type problem, really.

I have to say I don't share your intuition. It's certainly possible this could even be different for different people. Maybe for Amy, not getting up in the morning and suffering no punishment from god would indeed cause her faith to wane further (than necessary to decide to stay in bed rather than go to Church). But maybe for Bill, not getting out of bed in the morning will feel like he's insulted his god, punishment or no punishment. Even if your model is causally valid in some cases, it may not be in others.

I suppose that's possible, and polls don't even have a guarantee that people are repsonding honestly, or even that they can respond honestly. Though the poll I did a while back was responded to pretty much solely by atheists, and almost all said 'no' or 'probably not'. That said, the 'bad' atheists probably all waited until the 'good' atheists had already voted.

Dont see any bad atheists on that list, but I dont recognize all the names. I imagine a good proxy for determining if they are the bad kind would be to ask them if they are certain that god doesnt exist.

Cue avalanche of bad atheists voting on the poll.

They are coming, I'm sure of it. I've been reminded SO often that atheists think they can prove god doesnt exist and that they are just as much based on faith as religious types, that I just know they must be everywhere.

My apologies. I scanned through the middle of the thread without really reading it. After reading the first couple I scanned a random page and it seemed like the discussion had died out.

Are you claiming that this minimal degree of belief is the whole of "belief"? When someone strengthens (or weakens) their belief, is this not part of the whole of "believing"?

If you think it needs to be causally valid in all cases, then I'm unclear what it is you want shown. Are you asking someone to show that believing is always (or only) a choice? I can't show this and don't think this is true in any case.

If you are asking someone to show that believing can be a choice, then why does it matter if my model is causally valid in more than a single case?

I agree my example is chicken/egg-ish. Perhaps a better thought example (although now I am unclear what it is you are arguing, so maybe this is pointless) is that there are people who deliberately avoid listening to criticism of their faith because they want to avoid weakening their belief.

Also, I'm perfectly willing to agree that the causality could be in both directions. This doesn't hurt my argument. The only thing that hurts my argument (from this angle) is if you claim that the causality is solely in the other direction -- that weakening belief causes people to sleep through services, and never vice versa. This is what I think is intuitively not the case.

I'm tired and am going to sleep, I'll respond tomorrow.