I'm not 'calling Pletho out' here or anything, I just would really like to see anyone - theist or otherwise - explain better to me why they consider it a 'choice' to believe or not to believe something. There are a couple of variations of what might be meant by 'choice' and 'belief' in this context, and I'm perfectly willing to swing with whatever.

Since theists seem to be very cagey about responding to stuff like this, likely worrying about saying something in one context they'll have difficulty defending in another, I'll just lay my cards on the table: I don't think belief is 'voluntary' to any real extent, or at least, nothing like to the extent implied by many theists (OK, Christians). Which has implications for a lot of what they say about non-believers, conversion, apostasy, salvation, etc.

Does anyone (again, theist or otherwise) have an actual line of reasoning to support the idea that belief is voluntary? Pletho's post below is really just a claim, rather than an argument. Given that I don't accept the claim, I'd appreciate if he or someone else could try to argue for it?

I do not believe you will get the answers you are looking for.

Well, try harder then.

This is lolbad.

Ask Pletho if he could choose (or force himself) to believe in Allah. This is not brain surgery/rocket science.

ok.

On the one hand, I certainly see where you are coming from. We either believe something or we don't, based on the evidence presented to us - we are not "choosing" to do so. However, I do know quite a few intelligent deists (I know, but they are out there) who say they have "chosen" to believe in a God even though they realize it is illogical to do so, for the simple fact that it makes them feel better and at peace.

I honestly think you are confused and do not understand what believing is....

Believing is a choice and it is simple. If you pick up a news paper and erad the headlines do you believe everything that is written? No, nut sometimes you do accept what is written as truth. This is your choice. You look at the knowledge presented and make a choice, sometimes the knowledge is easily accepted as true, like the sky is blue. Sometimes knowledge contradicts things we have learned and we need more info/knowledge on the subject being presented to believe.

Some people do believe easier than others but this mainly has to do with their background/past experiances, all the lies and let downs they have had in the past lead to scepticsim, negativity and doubt and just a general lack of trusting anything or anyone, which is understandable.

I will explain believing better later I am about to go to work, yes I do work, seems likfe I don't doesn't it...either way I will clariy the biblical definition of believing and then you can see if your definition of believing is the same. As long as we agree on this we should have no problem discussing believing..'

Have a great day....

Pletho

Well, I was only kidding - I meant 'try harder to believe I'll get the answers' - but cheers anyway. And with your example, I guess since you already agree with me, I'd need to ask the deists if they think they're really 'choosing to believe' or if they're just acting in a manner consistent with the belief. It's possible they don't even know which themselves, I suppose.

of course there is an element of choice in belief; humans are rarely perfectly rational.

People tend to respond very badly (if at all) to FYP's so I'll do it legit even though an FYP would be more elegant and effective here.

Suppose I say that getting cancer is a choice. If you are exposed to a radioactive environment, do you always get cancer? No, but sometimes you do get cancer when exposed to radioactivity. This is your choice.

See? You're still just claiming it's a choice, you're not presenting any reason why you think so.

What can we 'need' to make a choice? I mean, I can see where more information will help a person make a choice where they were having trouble deciding, but there's an ambiguity in what you're saying - does the additional info make the choice easier, or possible?

And suppose we take a case where someone is presented with such additional info and indeed begins to believe. Could they have done otherwise, given the same circumstances?

I don't follow. Not that 'belief' is inherently irrational as a concept, just that I don't see how humans not being 'perfectly rational' means belief is voluntary.

What? What does being completely rational have to do with anything?

it means that people can use wanting something to be true as a reason for believing it to be so.

But that seems to pre-suppose volition...

if you are talking about choice in belief you want to look up doxastic voluntarism

this is the area of philosophy that regards choice about beliefs.

of course its not a choice, free will is an illusion and we are creatures of instinct. god.

Imagine you are put in a room and given a ballpoint pen. Can you decide to believe that it is a ford mustang?

How many times have you done this in this forum?

How many times have you said you will explain yourself "later", and never do?

You're a fraud.

Link doesn't work.

Believing is not a choice only if you have studied all the decent evidence available. I have chosen not to read The Case for Christ and there is always that tiny chance it would change my mind. Conversely most theists have avoided the sciences that might change theirs. So in that sense they we have made a choice.

Interestinly though this forum is populated with an amazing number of people who have studied enough of both sides where they could claim not to have a choice.

If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice.

-- RUSH

So you believe that you have no choice to decide what you believe and that your believing is pre-programmed?

Believing at its fundamental level, is nothing more or nothing less than simply accepting the knowledge or outside stimulation that you have been presented with to be true or false.

The mind easily accepts somethings to be true which is where I think you all have confused things a bit....

You choose not to believe me, correct, or is someone else in your mind making that decision for you?

Come on you of all people here you should be smart enough to realize that everybody decides and makes a conscious decision and choice about what they believe.

Do you believe that a 1$ bill will buy something that costs $1? Sure you do unless you are a real hard head.

Why do you believe this? Because you have done it before correct. Why did you do it before, because somewhere in the past someone told you when you were young that $ buys things. If you did not believe it you would never try and use $ to buy things. So you accepted what you were taught as truth which means you believed what you were taught, you believed.

What if I gave you a check for 1,000,000,000,000.00?

Would you believe it was real? Would you think for a moment that it was not real? Would you wonder? Would you go to the bank and cash or deposit it? Would you throw it away? My point is that you would want to believe it was real but doubt that it was real. You would in your mind be going back and forth, do I believe it is real or is it not real? You would be making choices and you would eventually come to your decision.

If you decided it wasn't real then you would tear it up, that is your believing about that check. If you believed that there was a slight chance it might be real you would at least go to a bank and see, that would also be your decision and believing. You would make a choice based and that choice would be your believing, whether it be unbelief or belief it still would be your believing. Not believing is believing, its just unbelief.

This can be and is applied everyday by everyone with different things on smaller or larger scales. It could be something someone told you, or something you saw ect... on and on, either way you are the one who has the choice to reject or accept what you are presented with as truth, if you reject it, that is unbelief, if you accept it as true, that is believing....

Pletho

Yes. And I'm pretty sure this is where YOUR confusion lies....

What ever dude, you do not know your a** from a whole in the ground when it comes to truth especially spritual laws and truths.

You have no truth or logic in your mind, therefore you are incapable of making a real good judgement about anything.

I don't even know what I answer you on these posts other than to tell you how stupid you are.....

I guess two can play the same game.......Of course you will say how un-Christian I am, LOL.

What a hypocrite you are in no place to judge a Christian, especially on if they are Christian like, you do not even know what Christianity is, or the bible or anything about anything, so shut your pie whole! LOL!

Pletho

As I've told you before, I've FORGOTTEN more about Christianity than you've ever known.

Yet, this is the best you have to offer?

You're a joke.

Go play somewhere where perhaps you will be taken seriously. It ain't gonna happen here....