No problem.

Rev 20:10 Then the devil, who had deceived them, was thrown into the fiery lake of burning sulfur, joining the beast and the false prophet. There they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.

The lake of fire is forever and ever...sounds like eternal suffering to me.

Check this out and let me know what you think. I wrote this a while back and at the end is the backup scripture. Also don't forget the Bible was written by common men inspired by God. They were fisherman, tax collectors, tent makers and one doctor. If God needed scholars and theologians to understand it He failed. Like I said it is not complicated.

http://www.rickuphoto.com/eternity/

Yes, that does seem like pretty strong evidence. I'm not a proponent of conditionalism myself, but I've been doing some research to acquaint myself more with the view, as it does have some redeeming arguments.

I read their rebuttal to Rev 20, and they state that it's allegorical, as most of Revelations is, and that this "torment" is nothing more than the destruction they will receive, which they maintain is supported in other places.

A second rebuttal they give is that this only applies to Satan, as no people are specifically mentioned, but I reject that view outright, since they are granting Satan an inherent immortality, which contradicts their view completely.

I read your eternity article, I mostly agree with you, I just like examining issues from different sides, it makes you more familiar with everything in general.

Just because a lake of fire burns forever, doesn't mean the people that are thrown in it aren't *consumed* by the fire.

A few points to ponder:

1. The Old Testament has a lot to say about the punishment of the wicked after death, and NONE of it mentions eternal torture, and it always talks about destruction/perishing, and similar words

2. Paul never mentions hell at all in Acts or any of his letters, not even once. If eternal torture is soooo important, why did Paul NEVER mention it once?

3. The Greek word that Jesus used to refer to the city dump outside Jerusalem (Gehenna) that is translated into English as hell is NEVER used in the Septuagint (Greek translation of the Old Testament

4. Gravey's comment about Jehovah's Witnesses is an attempt at guilt by association. Fact is, early church fathers taught it, including: Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Arnobius...

5. The idea that man has an inherent immortal soul did not come into Christianity through holy Scriptures, it came in through pagan philosophers.

[/QUOTE]

The modern scholars and theologians you are ignoring would have told you that we don't actually know who wrote the books of the New Testament (except for Paul, who was an educated Pharisee). It is unlikely that, say, a poor fisherman like John, son of Zebedee was literate at all, let alone able to write a book in a different language that shows familiarity with some of the basic literary forms of that language's literature.

The modern scholars and theologians you are ignoring would have told you that we don't actually know who wrote the books of the New Testament (except for Paul, who was an educated Pharisee). It is unlikely that, say, a poor fisherman like John, son of Zebedee was literate at all, let alone able to write a book in a different language that shows familiarity with some of the basic literary forms of that language's literature.[/QUOTE]

I can see this conversation is a waste of time. I believe the Bible is the Word of God and you don't. If one sentence is untrue the whole thing is bad. The one thing I do know is the personal relationship I have with my God and the peace I have that can not be explained to someone that has never experienced it. Kind of like trying to tell someone what it is like when you have a new baby. You discover a Love you never knew you had.
There is no doubt in my mind what is going to happen when I die. I have a joy that is unexplainable. When you stop doubting His word and put your trust and life in His hands and not the scholars you will never turn back. This will be my last post because I have done this before with people that believe the way you do and they are not seeking answers, only arguments. May God reveal Himself to you.

A few points. First, most books of the Bible are anonymous, so claiming that, for instance, Matthew wasn't written by Matthew the Apostle isn't disagreeing with the Bible, but with church tradition (something I am sure you do on many other matters of theology).

Second, that some of the books of the New Testament were not written by the authors ascribed to them by tradition is accepted by a multitude of scholars and regular Christians who still believe that the Bible is the Word of God. This is not an issue of whether or not I'm a Christian.

Third, it's great that you have such a close relationship and sense of joy from your relationship with God. However, that is about your relationship with God, not with the Bible. Being a believing Christian doesn't mean that you have to ignore what learned men and women say about theology and the Bible. Instead, you should be even more interested in reading them because of the greater insight they can provide for your own understanding of God's word.

Finally, I think you should re-examine your attitude towards this topic. By not letting yourself be open to correction and examination by other people, including those with different views than your own, I would guess that you have difficulty letting yourself be open to correction and examination by God as well (who of course can often speak through others).

Matthew 11: 25 At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike. 26 Yes, Father, it pleased you to do it this way! 27 My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28 Then Jesus said, Come to me, all of you who are weary and carry heavy burdens, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you. Let me teach you, because I am humble and gentle at heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy to bear, and the burden I give you is light.

Is this the ghost of GoodGravey? Because his last post was yesterday...

It just might be the Holy Ghost!

Proverbs 9:9
Give instruction to the wise, and they will become wiser still;
teach the righteous and they will gain in learning.

Proverbs 18:15
An intelligent mind acquires knowledge,
and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

Proverbs 12:23 >>
The wise don't make a show of their knowledge,
but fools broadcast their foolishness.

1 Corinthians 1:20
So where does this leave the philosophers, the scholars, and the world's brilliant debaters? God has made the wisdom of this world look foolish.

1 Corinthians 3:19 >>
For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say,
"He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness."*

Proverbs 9:9
Give instruction to the wise, and they will become wiser still;
teach the righteous and they will gain in learning.

Proverbs 18:15
An intelligent mind acquires knowledge,
and the ear of the wise seeks knowledge.

Yes, we should seek the Wisdom of God. Yes, knowledge is good.
The topic of this forum is salvation. All I am saying is a person can find salvation by reading the Bible without any outside assistance. The basic salvation message (Gospel) is very simple. Do we need teachers for understanding the benefits of our salvation? Yes. I also believe the Bible stands alone. I do not believe it is an allegory. We do not need outside sources adding to or taking away from the Word of God. There is a warning about that in Revelation.
Hopefully I am done for real this time.
Maybe another thread.

No one is saying anything about adding or subtracting anything from the Bible (except you). I am talking about using scholarship to learn more about the Bible. So if we are agreed that knowledge of the Bible is good, and that scholarship about the Bible increases knowledge of the Bible, then we should agree that scholarship about the Bible is a good thing. If that is so, then I don't think you should exhibit such a negative attitude towards using scholarship to understand the Bible.

As for the simplicity of the Gospel message, for a born-again Christian salvation is only the beginning. Beyond that she has an entire life to live--and studying the Bible using the best resources available would seem one of the best ways for her to find out how God wants that done.

I Agree!

I thought I was still talking to festeringZit. He was using scholars to dispute the teaching of the Word. Saying no hell and stories were folk tales and etc.

Gravey,

ROFL. I didn't use scholars to "dispute" the teaching of the Word.

And, I didn't say there was no hell, I said it's not what you think it is.

Can we agree that hell is what the Apostle Paul wrote on the subject? Oh wait, he never mentions it... never mind. Can we agree that hell is what Jesus said? Oh wait, Jesus only referred to the city dump outside Jerusalem. Can we agree that hell is what is written in the Old Testament? Oh wait, the OT doesn't mention it either, it only mentions sheol = the grave.

Get my point?

FesteringZit, Can I get your opinion on the rebuttal to Rev 20, which I posted above, and perhaps your own interpretation?

Makes no sense (and is cruel, not as cruel as eternal torment but still cruel) that when i die God would revive me just to put me to death again on judgment day in the lake of fire. Why would he do that? He already knows who will be put to death so reviving them seems like a very odd show trial... Judgement day makes more sense with an eternal hell. At least im getting some info on why im being tormented for eternity so i dont have to wonder. With death just leave me dead no wondering involved no info necessary.

If you take that train of thought, earth makes no sense either, since he already knows if you'll end up in heaven or hell. By this reasoning, he should have just made us in heaven or in hell.

I agree.

Well, you're consistent, I'll give you that. I think you would have a lot to complain about if your first moment of awareness was that of punishment in hell. Also, as conditionalists claim, perhaps there is no hell, and it's about non-existence.

Can you answer my question. Whats the purpose of being dead being risen form the dead only to be put back to death?

Not sure, but I suppose it has to do with justice, and for people to realize that Christ is real and died for them wanting them to repent. You know, "all knees will bow, all tongues will confess..."

So its like a haha. Idk seem odd and cruel and ultimately kind of pointless.