Question about Christ - Page 4 - Religion, God, and Theology

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Zarathustra claimed special divine revelation and had attempted to establish the
worship of one supreme God, Ahura Mazda, but after his death, the earlier Aryan
polytheism reemerged. Many other features of his theology, however, have
endured to the present time, through the religions that eventually superseded and
twisted them.

The Babylonian captivity of the 6th century BC transformed nascent Judaism in
a profound way, exposing the Jews to Zoroastrianism, which was virtually the
state religion of Babylon at the time. Until then, the Jewish conception of the
afterlife was inherited from their Sumerian origins, a vague shadowy existence in
Sheol, the underworld, land of the dead (not to be confused with Hell).
Zarathustra, however, preached the bodily resurrection of the dead, who would
face a last judgment (both individual and general) to determine their ultimate fate
in the next life: either Paradise or torment. Daniel - an advisor to King Darius -
was the first Jewish prophet to refer to resurrection, judgment, and reward or
punishment.

The new doctrine of resurrection was not widely accepted by the Jews and
remained a point of contention for centuries until its ultimate acceptance and
twisting to mean that only Jews, the Chosen People of Yahweh, would participate
in this earthly kingdom of Yahweh. The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 22:23,
records that the dispute was still going on at the time of its writing, with the
Sadducees denying resurrection and the Pharisees affirming it. We might also wish
to note the similarity between the names Pharisee and Farsi or Parsee, the
Persians from whom the doctrine of resurrection was borrowed.
In addition to incorporating the doctrines of resurrection and judgment, exposure
to Zoroastrianism substantially altered Jewish Messianism as well. Zarathustra
predicted the imminent arrival of a World Savior who would be born of a virgin
and who would lead humanity in the final battle against Evil. Jewish Messianism
merged these conceptions with their preexisting expectations of an earthly Davidic
king who would save the Jewish nation from oppression.
It was at this time, as a response to their captivity, that apocalyptic literature
appeared in Judaism, based on Babylonian models and patterned after their
symbology. This was to have a strong influence on later Christian theology. With
the key elements of resurrection, judgment, reward or punishment, a Savior,
apocalypse, and ultimate destruction of the forces of Evil, it can be concluded that
Jewish and Christian eschatology is Zoroastrian from start to finish.

The similarities don’t end with eschatology either. A lot of the tradition and
sacramental ritual of Christianity, particularly Catholicism, traces back to
Zoroastrian precursors. The Zoroastrian faithful would mark their foreheads with
ash before approaching the sacred fire, a gesture that resembles Ash Wednesday
tradition. Part of their purification before participating in ritual was the confession
of sins, categorized into three types: thought, word, or deed.
Zoroastrians also had a Eucharistic ritual, the Haoma ritual, in which the god
Haoma, or rather his presence, was sacrificed in a plant. The worshipers would
drink the juice in expectation of eventual immortality. There is a curious
connection here to the Epic of Gilgamesh where he was told that a plant could give
him immortality. One wonders, of course, if this wasn’t a later addition utilizing
consciousness altering substances to imitate mystical states of ecstasy.
Finally, Zoroastrians celebrated All Souls’ Day, reflecting, like the Catholics, a
belief in intercession by and for the dead. We should also note that the story of the
Magi, who were said to have visited the newborn Jesus, resembles an earlier story
of Magi who looked for a star foretelling the birth of a Savior, in this case Mithras.
Magi were not kings but Zoroastrian astrologers, and the birthday of Mithras - and
other “dying and resurrecting gods” - on December 25th was appropriated by the
church.

Christianity also seems to have borrowed the story of the temptation in the
desert from Zoroastrianism, since an earlier legend placed Zarathustra himself in
that situation. The principal demon, Ahriman, promised Zarathustra earthly power
if he would forsake the worship of the supreme God. Ahriman, like Satan when
tempting Jesus, failed.

A final interesting parallel is the three days that Jesus was said to have spent in
the grave. This concept may have been derived from a Zoroastrian belief that the
soul remains in the body for three days before departing. Three days would have
established death yet left his soul in a position to reanimate his body. As a
Messiah, Jesus functioned purely along Zoroastrian lines. While purportedly of the
Davidic line, he offered only redemption from sin, rather than national salvation
for the Jews. He was a world savior rather than a Jewish Messiah. The Jews did
not recognize him as their Messiah, and in a real sense he wasn’t and isn’t. Their
Messianic expectations, which preceded any foreign influence, went unfulfilled; in
fact, their nation was ultimately destroyed once and looks to be heading in the
same direction at present. Neither did Jesus effect a final triumph over Evil. This
has been reserved for a second coming in conjunction with the last judgment and
the rewards and punishments of either Heaven or Hell.

Last edited by alexsinn; 12-20-2010 at 01:10 PM.

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12-20-2010 , 02:11 PM

#77

batair

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 16,802

Quote:

Originally Posted by Splendour

I'm only loosely following this thread but who do you think the Amalekites were?

Some Christians think they were descended from fallen angels so that makes even the babies demons. They tried twice to wipe out King David which would have wiped out the line to Jesus Christ.

Other people think they were related to the giants and the giants were descended from the Nephilim.

The fact is they were never successfully wiped out in the bible so they were assimilated.

The alternate version from Jewish rabbis is that the Amalekites are symbols for all the bad traitss inherent in people hence they have to be slayed.

I'll be busy for a while so I may not be returning to the thread soon.

I'd suggest some people do some deeper thinking and researching into the OT though before they just assume everything is as it appears on the surface. If you're a skeptic you probably can't even consider that the Amalekites were descended from fallen angels. It's easier instead to substitute an evil nature for God though there are very few groups that say God's nature is evil and the Hebrews certainly never contended he was evil. They say he was the God of lovingkindness.

Some viewed them as a human tribe that God wanted to be killed off. Sorry but its one of the views too.

Since they seem contradictorily which view do you believe to be true after your deeper thinking? The one which makes God the most moral?

Last edited by batair; 12-20-2010 at 02:25 PM.

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12-24-2010 , 04:26 PM

#78

Splendour

banned

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 18,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by alexsinn

To do that, one would have to make an a priori assumption that the OT is based on fact. I am going to attempt to make an argument that this is not supportable as it relates to the Amalekites, because the careful scholar can trace where and how angels and demons even got added in to the Hebrew belief system. If one can do that one can then assume that they were not fallen Angels . This will be a little lengthy, so bear with me. It is, at least, entertaining though.

The ancient Iranian religion of fire, light, and Wisdom was founded by the
Prophet Zarathustra over 3000 years ago. The powerful influence of
Zoroastrianism on Judeo-Christianity and all of western civilization is not
generally known, but the fact is that the twisting of Zarathustra’s words changed the nature of civilization in the west.

Hardly anything is known about Zarathustra’s life and it is not even certain
when he lived. The ancient Greeks speculated that he lived six thousand years before the philosopher Plato though several scholars have argued for a date at the beginning of the sixth century BC. Modern scholars believe that Zarathustra is the author of the Gâthâ’s (a part of the Avesta), which they date - on linguistic grounds- to the fourteenth or thirteenth century BC. This corroborates the date given by Diogenes Laertius, who states that, “Zoroaster lived six hundred years before Xerxes’ invasion of Greece”, that is 1080 BC227.

It is unclear where Zarathustra was born and where he spent the first half of his life. Following the “assimilation of the hero to the myth” model, every tribe that converted to Zoroastrianism made up new legends about his life, and nearly all of them claimed that the prophet was “one of them”. On linguistic grounds, we may argue that the author of the Gâthâ’s belonged to a tribe that lived in the eastern part of Iran, in Afghanistan or Turkmenistan. This fits with a tradition that connects Zarathustra with the ancient country named Bactria and a cypress at Kâshmar but it doesn’t really prove Zarathustra’s origins. It is interesting that the same mythical model is in place for both Zarathustra and the first king of the Parthians, Arsaces.

The Gâthâ’s do contain some personal information, but not enough to complete a biography. The Denkard, a late Avestic text, does contain a summary of an older biography consisting of legends that are questionable as to reliability.

According to what is pieced together from these sketchy sources, Zarathustra was born in Bactria or Aria, now known as Western Afghanistan. The Arians (The name means “noblemen”), were nomads from central Asia, who settled in Iran at the end of the second millennium. As the son of a lesser nobleman named Purushaspa and a woman named Dughdhova. Zarathustra was the third of five brothers. He became a priest and seems to have showed a remarkable sympathy for all living creatures.

Zarathustra’s life changed when the god Ahuramazda granted him a vision. A
spirit named Good Thought appeared and told Zarathustra to oppose the bloody sacrifices of the traditional Iranian cults and to give aid to the poor.

Zarathustra started to preach that there was a supreme god, the “wise lord”
Ahuramazda, who had created the world, mankind and all good things in it
through his holy spirit, Spenta Mainyu. The rest of the universe was created by six other spirits, the Amesha Spentas (“holy immortals”). However, the order of this sevenfold creation was threatened by The Lie. Good and evil spirits were fighting and mankind had to support the good spirits in order to accelerate the inevitable victory of the good.

Zarathustra used words to describe the demons which are remarkably similar to words from the Indian Rig veda. Now it is reasonably certain that the language of the Rig veda was spoken in eastern Iran at some stage in the history of the second millennium BC and it is reasonable to assume that Zarathustra opposed the old religion, which was to flourish in the Punjab.

According to Zarathustra, it was the duty of the believer to align himself with
Ahuramazda, which was possible by avoiding lies, supporting the poor, several
kinds of sacrifices, the cult of fire, and so on. Additionally, Zarathustra warned the people that there would be a Last Judgment, where the friends of The Lie were to be condemned to Hell and the pious allowed to enter Heaven.

Yasna 30.1-6, 8-9

Truly for seekers I shall speak of those things to be pondered, even by one who already knows, with praise and worship for the Lord of Good Purpose, the excellent Wise One, and for Truth. [...]
Hear with your ears the best things. Reflect with clear purpose, each man for
himself, on the two choices for decision, being alert indeed to declare yourselves for Him before the great requital.
Truly, there are two primal Spirits, twins renowned to be in conflict. In thought and word, in act they are two: the better and the bad. And those who act well have chosen rightly between these two, not so the evildoers. And when these two Spirits first came together they created life and not-life, and how at the end Worst Existence shall be for the wicked, but the House of Best Purpose shall be for the just man.
Of these two Spirits the Wicked One chose achieving the worst things. The Most Holy Spirit, who is clad in the hardest stone, chose right, and so do those who shall satisfy Ahuramazda continually with rightful acts.

The daevas indeed did not choose rightly between these two, for the Deceiver approached them as they conferred. Because they chose worst purpose, they then rushed to Fury, with whom they have afflicted the world and mankind. Then when retribution comes for these sinners, then, Mazda, Power shall be present for Thee with Good Purpose, to declare himself for those, Lord, who shall deliver The Lie into the hands of Truth. And then may we be those who shall transfigure this world. O Mazda and you other Lords, be present with support and truth, so that
thoughts may be concentrated where understanding falters.

There seem to have been some conflicts between Zarathustra and the followers of the religions of sacrifice. Zarathustra was forced to flee his country since not even his family would help him.
Finally, Zarathustra obtained asylum from a king named Hystaspes who may
have ruled in Chorasmia (modern Uzbekistan) or Aria. At his court, the prophet
debated with the priests of Mithra; on an official gathering, they discussed thirty three questions, and Zarathustra’s opinions prevailed.

Many noblemen followed the example of Hystaspes and converted to
Zarathustra’s new religion. From then on, Zarathustra lived at the court of
Hystaspes, until he was killed at the age of seventy-seven by invading nomads. Some locate his death at Bactra (Balkh, near modern Mazâr-e Sharîf), in Afghanistan.

Zarathustra’s teachings are strongly dualistic; the believer has to make a choice between good and evil thus making Zoroastrianism one of first world religions to make ethical demands on the believers.
Western civilization owes mainly to Zarathustra its fundamental concept of
linear time, as opposed to the cyclical and essentially static concept of ancient times. This concept, which was implicit in Zarathustra’s doctrines, makes the notion of progress, reform, and improvement possible. For the most part, ancient civilizations, were profoundly static, believing that the ideal order had been handed down to them by the gods in some mythical Golden Age and they saw their religious task as a necessity to adhere to the established traditions as closely as possible. To reform or modify them in any way would have been a deviation from and diminution of the ideal.
Zarathustra gave to Persian and Greek thought the idea that there was a purpose and goal to history.

All people, he declared, were participants in a supernatural
battle between Good and Evil, the battleground for which was the Earth, and the very body of individual Man. This essential dualism was adopted by the Jews, who only after exposure to Zoroastrianism incorporated a demonology and angelology into their religion with a twist: instead of ethical conduct that depended on wisdom, it was Yahweh ( a regional god ) who was going to save them if they obeyed his rules,adhering to the established traditions as closely as possible. You could say that, in a way, the adoption and twisting of the ideas of Zoroaster just provided more ammunition in the arsenal of Yahweh for absolute control of his “chosen people”.

From Zoroastrianism, belief in demonic possession came to be a cultural
obsession, as is reflected in the Gospels where Jesus was the savior and redeemer rather than Yahweh and his endless rules.

Continued next post

The Hebrews actually claimed to be able to see angels up until the death of this man: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zechariah_Ben_Jehoiada

And the history of the bible is rather accurate.

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12-25-2010 , 02:51 PM

#79

Fretwork

grinder

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 467

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And the history of the bible is rather accurate.

Compared to what?

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12-25-2010 , 02:58 PM

#80

Splendour

banned

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 18,896

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fretwork

Compared to what?

The bible is the only extent source for a lot of ancient history.

Archaeology in particular keeps confirming the accuracy of the bible and forcing scholars to retract or look inaccurate about statements they made that were in contradiction with the bible on various historical facts. They keep digging into bible facts and the bible keeps getting confirmed.

Check out William Albright some time or the archaeologist who confirmed Luke was right about Paul's travels in the Book of Acts.

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12-25-2010 , 04:44 PM

#81

Pletho

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 4,271

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

If people who have never heard of Jesus can still get into Heaven by 'living a good life'

Stop right there..... This question starts with an error, so you will not get a correct answer. No one gets to heaven for being a good little boy or girl, eternal life is recieved by believing and by believeing ONLY!

Dont argue with me like you always seem to do, you have no clue what you are talking about. Once you decide to actually base your questions on scenarios that are correct, you'll at least be heading in a better direction to learn. If not, you'll just flounder around wasting your time and others with silly questions that are based on knowledge that is error laden.

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12-26-2010 , 03:44 PM

#82

str8 burnt

banned

Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 417

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deorum

If people who have never heard of Jesus can still get into Heaven by 'living a good life' (as most theists here seem to think), then why did Jesus have to die? Why could not have we received the same deal?

How many people have not heard of Jesus? Not many. Especially if you believe in reincarnation (i think its biblical, remember when the disciples asked Jesus for whose sin was this man born blind, his or his parents? How could he sin before he was born? I realize this isnt overwhelming evedince) The two witnesses Britain and the U.S. have done a pretty good job printing the bible and spreading it throughout the world. The Koran also speaks of Jesus and calls him the Christ. If some remote tribal people have never heard, look to the epistle of Paul when he says they will be judged according to their conscience or something to that effect, I don't really feel like looking it up. Then again who hasn't violated their conscience?

Jesus did say I am the Way the Truth and the Life and no one comes to the father except by me. Was he saying whoever chants my name? I think he was implying they had to be like him, deny themselves and crucify (figuratively, although possibly leading to death) the flesh.

Here are some relevant versus IMO concerning salvation:

Mathew 5:17-“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18“For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19“Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20“For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

7:13“Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it. 14“For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

21“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22“Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’

I think were going to be shocked on judgment day and very few people are going to be saved. Perhaps only 144k out of 7 billion. When I read these verses it scares me tbh. Perhaps the only way is to truly emulate Jesus, starting by heading to the woods to fast for 40 days (no food, no water). I'm thinking during this time you'll learn to seperate your voice, Gods voice, and the Devils voice and from that time forward, you'll have to be completely committed to following Gods voice.

So why did Jesus have to die? Jesus died for your former sins until you reach near perfection as Jesus said be perfect as your father in heaven is perfect.

As far as simply "believing", Hebrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

So yea, your going to have to believe, but believing is not merely a chant.

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