Quote:
Originally Posted by Splendour
I'm only loosely following this thread but who do you think the Amalekites were?
Some Christians think they were descended from fallen angels so that makes even the babies demons. They tried twice to wipe out King David which would have wiped out the line to Jesus Christ.
Other people think they were related to the giants and the giants were descended from the Nephilim.
The fact is they were never successfully wiped out in the bible so they were assimilated.
The alternate version from Jewish rabbis is that the Amalekites are symbols for all the bad traitss inherent in people hence they have to be slayed.
I'll be busy for a while so I may not be returning to the thread soon.
I'd suggest some people do some deeper thinking and researching into the OT though before they just assume everything is as it appears on the surface. If you're a skeptic you probably can't even consider that the Amalekites were descended from fallen angels. It's easier instead to substitute an evil nature for God though there are very few groups that say God's nature is evil and the Hebrews certainly never contended he was evil. They say he was the God of lovingkindness.
To do that, one would have to make an a priori assumption that the OT is based on fact. I am going to attempt to make an argument that this is not supportable as it relates to the Amalekites, because the careful scholar can trace where and how angels and demons even got added in to the Hebrew belief system. If one can do that one can then assume that they were not fallen Angels . This will be a little lengthy, so bear with me. It is, at least, entertaining though.
The ancient Iranian religion of fire, light, and Wisdom was founded by the
Prophet Zarathustra over 3000 years ago. The powerful influence of
Zoroastrianism on Judeo-Christianity and all of western civilization is not
generally known, but the fact is that the twisting of Zarathustra’s words changed the nature of civilization in the west.
Hardly anything is known about Zarathustra’s life and it is not even certain
when he lived. The ancient Greeks speculated that he lived six thousand years before the philosopher Plato though several scholars have argued for a date at the beginning of the sixth century BC. Modern scholars believe that Zarathustra is the author of the Gâthâ’s (a part of the Avesta), which they date - on linguistic grounds- to the fourteenth or thirteenth century BC. This corroborates the date given by Diogenes Laertius, who states that, “Zoroaster lived six hundred years before Xerxes’ invasion of Greece”, that is 1080 BC227.
It is unclear where Zarathustra was born and where he spent the first half of his life. Following the “assimilation of the hero to the myth” model, every tribe that converted to Zoroastrianism made up new legends about his life, and nearly all of them claimed that the prophet was “one of them”. On linguistic grounds, we may argue that the author of the Gâthâ’s belonged to a tribe that lived in the eastern part of Iran, in Afghanistan or Turkmenistan. This fits with a tradition that connects Zarathustra with the ancient country named Bactria and a cypress at Kâshmar but it doesn’t really prove Zarathustra’s origins. It is interesting that the same mythical model is in place for both Zarathustra and the first king of the Parthians, Arsaces.
The Gâthâ’s do contain some personal information, but not enough to complete a biography. The Denkard, a late Avestic text, does contain a summary of an older biography consisting of legends that are questionable as to reliability.
According to what is pieced together from these sketchy sources, Zarathustra was born in Bactria or Aria, now known as Western Afghanistan. The Arians (The name means “noblemen”), were nomads from central Asia, who settled in Iran at the end of the second millennium. As the son of a lesser nobleman named Purushaspa and a woman named Dughdhova. Zarathustra was the third of five brothers. He became a priest and seems to have showed a remarkable sympathy for all living creatures.
Zarathustra’s life changed when the god Ahuramazda granted him a vision. A
spirit named Good Thought appeared and told Zarathustra to oppose the bloody sacrifices of the traditional Iranian cults and to give aid to the poor.
Zarathustra started to preach that there was a supreme god, the “wise lord”
Ahuramazda, who had created the world, mankind and all good things in it
through his holy spirit, Spenta Mainyu. The rest of the universe was created by six other spirits, the Amesha Spentas (“holy immortals”). However, the order of this sevenfold creation was threatened by The Lie. Good and evil spirits were fighting and mankind had to support the good spirits in order to accelerate the inevitable victory of the good.
Zarathustra used words to describe the demons which are remarkably similar to words from the Indian Rig veda. Now it is reasonably certain that the language of the Rig veda was spoken in eastern Iran at some stage in the history of the second millennium BC and it is reasonable to assume that Zarathustra opposed the old religion, which was to flourish in the Punjab.
According to Zarathustra, it was the duty of the believer to align himself with
Ahuramazda, which was possible by avoiding lies, supporting the poor, several
kinds of sacrifices, the cult of fire, and so on. Additionally, Zarathustra warned the people that there would be a Last Judgment, where the friends of The Lie were to be condemned to Hell and the pious allowed to enter Heaven.
Yasna 30.1-6, 8-9
Truly for seekers I shall speak of those things to be pondered, even by one who already knows, with praise and worship for the Lord of Good Purpose, the excellent Wise One, and for Truth. [...]
Hear with your ears the best things. Reflect with clear purpose, each man for
himself, on the two choices for decision, being alert indeed to declare yourselves for Him before the great requital.
Truly, there are two primal Spirits, twins renowned to be in conflict. In thought and word, in act they are two: the better and the bad. And those who act well have chosen rightly between these two, not so the evildoers. And when these two Spirits first came together they created life and not-life, and how at the end Worst Existence shall be for the wicked, but the House of Best Purpose shall be for the just man.
Of these two Spirits the Wicked One chose achieving the worst things. The Most Holy Spirit, who is clad in the hardest stone, chose right, and so do those who shall satisfy Ahuramazda continually with rightful acts.
The daevas indeed did not choose rightly between these two, for the Deceiver approached them as they conferred. Because they chose worst purpose, they then rushed to Fury, with whom they have afflicted the world and mankind. Then when retribution comes for these sinners, then, Mazda, Power shall be present for Thee with Good Purpose, to declare himself for those, Lord, who shall deliver The Lie into the hands of Truth. And then may we be those who shall transfigure this world. O Mazda and you other Lords, be present with support and truth, so that
thoughts may be concentrated where understanding falters.
There seem to have been some conflicts between Zarathustra and the followers of the religions of sacrifice. Zarathustra was forced to flee his country since not even his family would help him.
Finally, Zarathustra obtained asylum from a king named Hystaspes who may
have ruled in Chorasmia (modern Uzbekistan) or Aria. At his court, the prophet
debated with the priests of Mithra; on an official gathering, they discussed thirty three questions, and Zarathustra’s opinions prevailed.
Many noblemen followed the example of Hystaspes and converted to
Zarathustra’s new religion. From then on, Zarathustra lived at the court of
Hystaspes, until he was killed at the age of seventy-seven by invading nomads. Some locate his death at Bactra (Balkh, near modern Mazâr-e Sharîf), in Afghanistan.
Zarathustra’s teachings are strongly dualistic; the believer has to make a choice between good and evil thus making Zoroastrianism one of first world religions to make ethical demands on the believers.
Western civilization owes mainly to Zarathustra its fundamental concept of
linear time, as opposed to the cyclical and essentially static concept of ancient times. This concept, which was implicit in Zarathustra’s doctrines, makes the notion of progress, reform, and improvement possible. For the most part, ancient civilizations, were profoundly static, believing that the ideal order had been handed down to them by the gods in some mythical Golden Age and they saw their religious task as a necessity to adhere to the established traditions as closely as possible. To reform or modify them in any way would have been a deviation from and diminution of the ideal.
Zarathustra gave to Persian and Greek thought the idea that there was a purpose and goal to history.
All people, he declared, were participants in a supernatural
battle between Good and Evil, the battleground for which was the Earth, and the very body of individual Man.
This essential dualism was adopted by the Jews, who only after exposure to Zoroastrianism incorporated a demonology and angelology into their religion with a twist: instead of ethical conduct that depended on wisdom, it was Yahweh ( a regional god ) who was going to save them if they obeyed his rules,adhering to the established traditions as closely as possible. You could say that, in a way, the adoption and twisting of the ideas of Zoroaster just provided more ammunition in the arsenal of Yahweh for absolute control of his “chosen people”.
From Zoroastrianism, belief in demonic possession came to be a cultural
obsession, as is reflected in the Gospels where Jesus was the savior and redeemer rather than Yahweh and his endless rules.
Continued next post
Last edited by alexsinn; 12-20-2010 at 01:12 PM.
