Excellent explanation.

I am in complete agreement with Kurto here. I always got the impression this is a new fad of beliefs teaching a broader view of how individuals obtain entrance into heaven.

I was basically taught this:
"Being estranged from God and condemned by our sinfulness, our salvation is wholly dependent upon the work of God's free grace. God credits His righteousness to those who put their faith in Christ alone for their salvation, thereby justifies them in His sight. Only such as are born of the Holy Spirit and receive Jesus Christ become children of God and heirs of eternal life."

This is from http://www.heartlandchurch.org/index.php/new/beliefs/ which draws their beliefs from the Calvinist tradition. I only used this reference because I know the Pastor and have a limited understand of this belief system from my youth.

What if the reason tells me that there is not enough evidence for me to believe in him... At the end , he is the one who designed us that way(if Christians are right)... He gave us reason to use it and not blindly accept things without evidence...

I always wondered how will he judge those who did bad things because of their psychological problems, let it be terrible conditions they were brought up in when they were a child, or some other type of child abuse. Science tells us that some psychological disorders make us do evil things, now... Is the person in their heart really evil? or not? What is the real him/her, obviously the sickness changes a person., and why would GOD design a human in such way that a psychological disorder can make a person go crazy and kill many innocent people.. in that case, all of those people are the victims, even the killer since he did not really wanted this to happen but his actions were caused by a God's poor design.. So GOD sends all of them to heaven even the killer?

Some scholars claim its not a new fad. But was the actual way until around the 4th Century and the powers that be through a combination of theology battles and political power merged a pagan hell concept with the bible.

Did you ever think that history repeats itself? Christ came down to buck the traditions of men. I wonder what he would think about us falling under those traditions again.

It doesn't matter how "good" they are. People don't get into heaven because they are good. No one is good except God (Mark 10:18), who lets people into His heaven on the condition that previous accounts have been settled. They get into God's heaven after physical death to have another life only through Christ's payment of their sin debts inherited from Adam who corrupted himself and the heirs of his earthly existence. God will not allow corruption into His heaven.

John 14:6 appears rather straightforward to me.
"Some scholars claim it is not a new fad." I was only suggesting that (this) is the interpretation of the bible that I was lead to believe. The fact that many Christians, Catholics, and Biblical Scholars have a wide variety of beliefs and interpretations doesn't surprise me at all. Once again, I am only under the impression that most Christian Churches teach that one can only become a Christian and enter God's Kingdom through Jesus Christ. You are free to deliver fifty web-sites from various obscure scholarly research if you like but this passage as do many others make it very clear cut in my non-christian opinion.

I can argue with you about this day and night... If you accept that the bible is inerrant then unfortunately GOD is not GOOD... Cause the things he does in the OT cannot be considered GOOD..

I'll take Dr. Stephen E. Jones' thoroughness over the hoi polloi any day. Some people are content with being told and other people actually pour over the scriptures with a fine tooth comb.

Besides I know something about his "roots". His father grew up in A.W. Tozer's church and anybody who's read a Tozer essay would never doubt his Christian motives.

Oh the old inerrancy thing.

God is inerrant or infallible.

People have been known to make translation errors.

But anybody thinking critically would never confuse human error with God being in error.

Even if you tell me that the whole bible is a translation error.. look around you.. people die of disease, natural disasters, etc.. Who is responsible for that pain? GOD...He made a poor design allowing genetic and other disease to cause pain and suffering and death.. same with the way this universe is "designed" by him... One cannot be considered to be GOOD and allow evil.. or one cannot be considered GOOD if he is omniscient but creates humans with disease , obviously faulty design... If a car designer knows there is an issue with a design of their cars that can cause them to brake and cause pain to the driver or others involved then who is responsible for that bad action? Who is responsible for releasing the product knowing that it has a faulty design and will cause misery

Not necessarily.

Not if all the weaknesses stem from mortality.

Originally God designed Adam and Eve perfectly then when death was decreed it passed on through them to their children. That's not even sin that's biological weakness being passed on to us. We sin on our own later due to weaknesses in our own bodies. There is an age of accountability. Some people like the Jews think the age is 13 when boys are Bar Mitzvah'd. So before then people are considered innocent or not accountable for their sins. The Catholics just assumed the sin got passed down as original sin. What actually got passed down was a biological weakness that leads to sin.

If you search I'm sure you will find a scholar or two who explain the pre-fall bodies of Adam and Eve were better before the Fall.

I don't have any desire to turn this into a debate over who's interpretation of the Bible is more accurate and it should have been clear that was not my intent. I thought I made that pretty evident! I could dig up some "scholarly research" of those who would agree with the Westminster Confession of Faith yet I am not quite sure what this would prove..

Well, actually it would only prove that a wide variety of scholars and the "hoi polloi" throughout history have had different beliefs about the Bible and how it should be interpreted. This shouldn't be shocking to anyone on this form!

I have no idea whether Dr. Stephen E. Jones is correct or not but the suggestion that many Christians, especially Pastors and Ministers (your Christian brothers and sisters) are simply blindly following the Bible rather than actually doing research should be offensive to other Christians. There are many Pastors who are very intellectually honest, pouring over scriptures and hold different beliefs than you do. Rather than simply saying there are Scholars who disagree with the Calvinist tradition you disparage multiple good and honest Pastor's and Ministers who believe they are conducting God's work.

Well done Splendour! In the future I will simply troll the forms and let others debate you and tolerate your shenanigans.

God ordered the deaths of innocent babies to be killed in Egypt. That's not a translation error.

We've already seen the atheist reponses, I believe, in the "should the children of sinner's be punished" thread. Basically... if God kills the descendents of a sinner.... it is good. If anyone but God did it, it would be considered monstrous.

That's the kind of congnitive dissonance it takes to be a believer.

I'm a non-denominationalist.

The spirit of denominationalism has split more churchs up than just about anything and what is that spirit? It is the desire to dominate and declare your group alone has the the truth.

Well I think most Christians have the truth. Which is that Jesus died for your sins. It doesn't mean every Christian and/or every church has every doctrine exactly alike. Check the variety in doctrinal statements some time.

People aren't saved because they believe in the hell doctrine. They are saved because they believe Jesus came, died for them and rose from the dead and appeared in the flesh. Read 1 John. It doesn't say you have to believe in hell doctrine.

And if all these pastors knew everything then why do they go to theology school and why are there so many different schools with different doctrinal statements.

I read Jones because he goes into detail. Not only that he's explained mysteries that are never expounded on in church so that demonstrates his expertise.

Some Christians are Thessalonians...the majority of Christians. Some are Bereans...the minority. I think Jones is a Berean. The Bereans were more noble than the Thessalonians...they poured over the scriptures with more regularity. But I'm just spliting hairs...God places calls on people and endows them with gifts. You can check the man out for yourself and see if he's gifted or not. I think he is.

yes. That is an intriguing question. Of course no one said that the pastors know everything. And no one was questioning why people go to theology school. But it was an intriguing response nonetheless.

And when was that? you are telling me that a 6 day creation is a legit story because it goes against the scientific theories and evidence...


I love it how you claim to know better then anyone else.. and everyone else is wrong but you... this is why i told myself not to even read your nonsense... but you keep replying to me so i have to...

That's what bothers me sometimes, the double standards from theists(obviously not all)...

I put the link explaining the book of Romans translation error in another thread. I guess you didn't read it.

One of the translator's of the bible mistranslated the words "eph 'ho in the book of Romans.

We didn't inherit a sin nature we inherited a liability for sin.

Here's the explanation: The Affect of Adam's Sin on Man's Nature by Dr. Stephen E. Jones

http://www.gods-kingdom-ministries.o...s/Chapter9.cfm

How can the Catholics be teaching original sin when the Hebrews Bar Mitzvah is the religious coming of age when children become responsible for the mitzvot independent of their parents?

How can there be a disjuncture on this between the Catholics and the Hebrews...simple...some theologian philosophically articulating on sin made an assumption without referencing ancient Hebrew knowledge on sin. Sin isn't a concept owned exclusively by Christians...It's much older than the NT...it traces back to the OT.

you and your links... do you even think on your own?

I showed you the translation error and you didn't even bother to read it.

I can't take you seriously.

I just showed how God didn't originally design us with flaws and you didn't even bother to consider the argument.

If you can't appreciate the work it takes to dig up a translation error I really can't discuss with you further.

You're just trolling and thinking like a lightweight.

of course I did not bother to read, if i cared to read every damn link you post I would never have time for anything else..


Why is that? because I don't want to read your links? I told you before.. you have something to prove, tell me all that you have to say in your words...


And you did not even answer my question, LIKE USUALLY, I ASK YOU ONE THING, YOU TELL ME SOMETHING ELSE.. You should learn to read first and then answer on the same subject...


I did not ask you to look anything up... I did not even ask you to show me translation errors.. Again, learn to answer the questions..

I'm done with the thread.

The conversation isn't a two way street.

It's an interrogation and I don't care to answer questions from a perspective that has got things backwards.

I showed you from scripture that God made Adam and Eve with stronger bodies before the fall then explained the weaknesses you complained about above are a result of the mortality pronounced on us.

So I win because I showed that God didn't design us imperfectly.

If you want to counter with he didn't design us nature did. Go ahead.

But I still won the point because your statement was God didn't design us very well. You forgot there was a pronouncement of infirmity or death upon us right after the designing.....

But that's exactly what you have done.. I ASK you questions based on what you write and then you don't bother to answer them and go on to different topics...


LOL , what are you a kid?? I WIN , I WIN!!!!

btw. you didn't show me anything.. I asked you if you accept the 6 day creation and if so then you are obviously wrong because the scientific evidence tells us that the universe was not created in such way as depicted in the Genesis.. If you don't accept the 6 day creation then I want you to explain to me where DID that ADAM and EVE appear since this seems to go against the theory of evolution that states the gradual change of organisms and there is no EVIDENCE that humans all of the sudden appeared on earth fully formed and clearly thinking as if they were born today...

AND EVEN IF I ACCEPTED ALL YOUR NONSENSE, God allowed imperfection to happen so he is still responsible for it..

It's funny that GOD creates a curious creature (us) , knows the future of what this creature will do and knows it will eventually sin and cause generations to suffer, yet he knowingly allows this to fulfill.. and you tell me he is all GOOD? i don't understand this type of thinking.. and btw this goes against your sentence "So I win because I showed that God didn't design us imperfectly." , HE DID DESIGN us imperfect.. if we were perfect Adam and Eve would have never fell for Satan's trick.. lol

I just entered the thread because its a universalist topic on hell and wanted to let the OP see an interpretation on it because that was the OP question early in the thread.

I'm not that interested in origins or the 6 creation days. Maybe you can find a creationist in another forum. I don't know of any posting on this site.