lagtight,

The only thing I can glean from your post above is that you believe God chooses human beings for suffering and judgment in the earthly realm either capriciously or for reasons that are inscrutable. Like me, you seem to have no idea why God would subject the people of Cambodia to the evil of Pol Pot rather than the people of some other country.

That's unsatisfying to me because it looks like an effort to find order and meaning where none exists.

Every day, terrible human beings win money at the craps table and use that money for terrible reasons. Let's take the example of the guy who hits it big at the craps table and uses that money to sexually exploit children. At the same time, another guy loses a wallet that was full of money that he planned to donate to the local homeless shelter.

You want me to believe that God is controlling the dice for the first guy and causing the wallet to fall out of the pocket of the second guy. And when I ask why God would prefer these outcomes, your response is "only God knows."

Not my thing bashing anyone's religion. But the epistemology matters. This trump trick of accusing the other side of what you are doing in spades is a zero-reality game, and is one of the most dangerous things under the sun. Meh.

"Freedom" and it consequent responsibility does not contradict the idea of the Divine.

Also "freedom" is the necessary sister of love for Man cannot love without "freedom" as "love" cannot be coerced.

The above is the manifestation of the Christ Impulse to which we are all within, this life onto the next.

The deterministic world purview can be seen with Augustine and in the more modern sense John Calvin et.al.. which leads to our present thought process which are the deterministic thoughts and thinking of modern science.

Along with this modern thinking the idea of the Divine (or the spiritual world) is nonsensical for the eyes of science and modern theology( some, not all) are affixed upon the earth and so the test of spirituality lies within the laboratory within the modern test tube. "If you can't weigh it, fa getta bout it"

To the contrary, Aquinas speaks to "freedom and responsibility" of the individual soul in life. Yes, there is a soul in each man as expression of Divine Love.

Other aphorisms; Within freedom and responsibility the impediments to life and the living manifest through the individual man who develops his soul into higher realms from life to life. Another way, one becomes stronger through lifting weights, burdensome though they are.

Impediments cannot be spoken to unless the idea of Lucifer and Ahriman is referenced. Both spiritual beings are within the human being, looking for opportunities to bring converts to their presence.

Lucifer would have us "leave the earth" with our thinking and in doing so pay homage to him.

Ahriman would have us take the spiritual and hammer it the harder and have us believe that the earth is the only matter. Familiar isn't it ?

Those are the two poles of reality to which each individual man is ensconced and yes, the Christ way is the balancing of the both for one cannot deny the reality of the two spirits . We live with them in a balanced judgement of a faithful future. Faith as a power of knowledge for the futuristic man.

As an almost forgotten addendum, I too have only spoken to future life but to be clear the human soul/spiritual being entered into this life and in a sense is "unborn". the spiritual world between earthly lives is another story but remember ; you are from this spirit and leave to the spirit world at death with an intermediary presentation within the Divine.

Within Christ, who sits in the hearts of all men, death will be overcome .

You are correct. I believe that God only knows.

but you have no reason. "Faith" is the reason christians give in order to justify their belief in god. You have no evidence , and if you did, you wouldnt need to appeal to faith in order to justify your belief.

What evidence/reason do you have that supports your faith?

"The greatest tragedy in mankind's history is the hijacking of morality by religions." -- Arthur C. Clark

This has happened to such a degree that true believer's just reflexively say, "If you have no god you can have no morality, and rape and murder, etc. is okay." It's an utterly inane comment, and that it can be uttered shows that in matters of morality, for them, it is authoritarian magic ... or nothing at all. I mean, what else could be a source of right and wrong other than my magic god?

Hundreds (thousands?) of books have been written providing evidence for the truth of Christianity.

In a brief e-book I am currently writing, I highlight six:

1. Creation
2. Conscience
3. Canon
4. Christ
5. Conversion
6. Comprehensiveness

One can certainly reject the evidence provided, but the idea that "faith is the reason Christian's give to justify their belief..." merely shows that you are ignorant of the relevant literature.

Some of the more popular books on the subject:

"The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel

"Handbook of Christian Apologetics" by Kreeft and Tercelli

"Evidence that Demands a Verdict" by Josh McDowell.

How do you resolve the following problem that these answers create:

You are arguing that evidence and logic support the truth of Christianity. But you dismiss contradictory evidence by saying the ways of the Lord are inscrutable.

Massacres and hyper-exploitation of the Congolese suggest the universe is capricious towards life since there is no moral case for Belgian King Leopold II's genocide.

It is not sound to use reason when it favors your case, and dismiss it when it does not.

You'll have to keep returning to faith alone.

None of these are evidence of the truth of christianity. Its possible I missed it though. give me your best piece of evidence.

Can you be more precise in your language of "the truth of Christianity"? What particular propositions do you understand that phrase to mean?

I suppose I assumed what lagtight meant when he said it. If he clarifies what he meant, I can then say whether I agree

I would say "the truths of Christianity" are the teachings in the 27 "books" of what is commonly referred to as the "New Testament."

no, I mean, what did you mean by "evidence for the truths of christianity"

btw, pointing to the bible in order to prove the bible, is not evidence.

Which teachings?

The New Testament is the "Constitution" (so to speak) of Christianity.

grunching:


you can't "prove" Christianity, nor should you even attempt it, as the most basic tenet of it is faith.

I say this as a staunch atheist.

If you're trying to prove your faith, then your faith is lacking.

Okay. But what does that mean with respect to truth? For example, I don't think the constitution is a "true" document. Nor do I think it's false.

lagtight - what happened to supporting the claims you made when you started this thread? You've gone totally off course.

A believers faith today is the same as what the disciples had seeing Jesus perform His miracles and rose from the dead. It's not a maybe or I would like to think it's true faith it's a for sure faith.

If people really wanted to know if the God of the bible is real, just ask Him. He will show you. Now most people dont want to know bc that will mean our way of thinking is wrong and we dont want to admit that or change our have to change our lives. God gave up His throne in heaven to be murdered on earth, He wants to show you He is real.

Even if there was 100% chance christianity can be proven, people still wont believe, God was here and only a handful of people followed Him.

How convenient. "If you ask and dont get an answer, you didnt ask in the right way, or you didnt believe enough"

Then dont ask for proof, just go on your way.

Some thoughts on creation and evolution:

"Natural selection may be able to explain the survival of a species, but it cannot explain the arrival of a species." - Norman Geisler

"Looking at the doctrine of Darwinism, which undergirded my atheism for many years, it didn't take me long to conclude that it was simply too far-fetched to be credible. I realized that if I were to embrace Darwinism and its underlying premise of naturalism, I would have to believe that:

1. Nothing produces everything.

2. Non-life produces life.

3. Randomness produces fine-tuning.

4. Chaos produces information.

5. Unconsciousness produces consciousness.

6. Non-reason produces reason....

The central pillars of evolutionary theory quickly rotted away when exposed to scrutiny."

- Lee Strobel

"Christians believe in the virgin birth of Jesus. Materialists believe in the virgin birth of the cosmos. Choose your miracle." - Glen Scrivener

how disingenuous do you want to be?

If you have something of substance to say, I would be delighted to engage you.

Have a blessed day!