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Old 01-04-2019, 06:55 PM   #201
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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When you die, will the sun cease to exist?
If your brain stops, the sun will cease to exist to you. The only thing you can ever know with absolute certainty is what you perceive.
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:57 PM   #202
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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The diameter of the sun is approximately 864,337 miles wide, while the diameter of my head is less than a single mile. Thus, the sun can't fit in my head. Furthermore, if the sun was in my head, you would be dead, since you would then be too close to the blazing heat my head would emit.
How did you measure its diameter?
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:59 PM   #203
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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The diameter of the sun is approximately 864,337 miles wide, while the diameter of my head is less than a single mile. Thus, the sun can't fit in my head. Furthermore, if the sun was in my head, you would be dead, since you would then be too close to the blazing heat my head would emit.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:01 PM   #204
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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If your brain stops, the sun will cease to exist to you. The only thing you can ever know with absolute certainty is what you perceive.
I don't require this level of certainty, but it seems to me you're changing the subject. I'm sure you can reach all kinds of weird conclusions if you begin by assuming solipsism.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:06 PM   #205
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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I don't require this level of certainty, but it seems to me you're changing the subject. I'm sure you can reach all kinds of weird conclusions if you begin by assuming solipsism
Either something is true or something is not true. Everything in between is "I dont know."

We can come up with fancy little frameworks that conclude something is "most probably true" but they violate the laws of logic. What were really saying when we say something is "most probably true is both "we dont know" and "theres no way to know."

Solipsism is all you've got to start with. That your perceptions often confirm your perceptions is circular reasoning.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:08 PM   #206
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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How did you measure its diameter?
I didn't, I just asked google.com. Why, do you think the sun really is small enough to fit in my head?
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:10 PM   #207
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

For my next feat I will attempt to pull a concrete rabbit out of an abstract hat:

1) Human beings are part of humanity.
2) Human beings have properties.
3) Properties of parts of humanity are properties of humanity.
4) Human beings are self-aware

Conclusion: Humanity is self-aware.

Meaning: There is a entity termed ‘Humanity’ experiencing self-awareness.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:12 PM   #208
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

So you're a rationalist solipsist who rejects empiricism entirely?

The thing is though, no matter how highly you privilege deductive logic you still have the problem that all of your logical arguments have been invalid.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:12 PM   #209
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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I didn't, I just asked google.com. Why, do you think the sun really is small enough to fit in my head?
The representation of whatever the sun is, is small enough to fit in your head.

I ask again, prove that you have an experience of "the sun" beyond what's going on in your brain.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:24 PM   #210
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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I didn't, I just asked google.com. Why, do you think the sun really is small enough to fit in my head?
You're just assuming the sun is outside your head, and then relying on perception (your 'eyes', of google, of scale-type instruments, etc) to prove it. Sorry, but that's begging the question again.

You do that a lot.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:32 PM   #211
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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The representation of whatever the sun is, is small enough to fit in your head.
Representations of the sun are in my head, and depend for their existence on my head existing. Agreed. Stop arguing for something we already agree about. Here's the claim we don't agree about. The sun itself - the giant, blazing hot, 864,337 mile-wide ball of gas is also in my head and so depends for its existence on my head existing. That I don't agree with.

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I ask again, prove that you have an experience of "the sun" beyond what's going on in your brain.
Nah, I can't prove the existence of an external world. I also can't prove the existence of an internal world, of other minds, of moral rules, of god, of the self, of immortality or mortality, of the laws of logic, mathematics, or really just about anything except perhaps perceptions happening.

Nonetheless, I believe in some of these things and not in others of them. One thing I believe in is the existence of the sun as a giant gasball in space approximately 93,000,000 miles away and that it is way too big to fit inside my head.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:35 PM   #212
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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You're just assuming the sun is outside your head, and then relying on perception (your 'eyes', of google, of scale-type instruments, etc) to prove it. Sorry, but that's begging the question again.

You do that a lot.
No it's not. Begging the question is when I use the conclusion of an argument as one of its premises. I've not presented an argument at all. I'm merely stating facts about the world, such as the size of the sun and the size of my head. If you disagree about how big either of these things are, let me know.

EDIT: Or maybe you don't disagree, but you think a sun that is 864,377 miles wide can fit inside my less than a mile wide head?

Last edited by Original Position; 01-04-2019 at 07:47 PM. Reason: Just making sure
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:45 PM   #213
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Either something is true or something is not true. Everything in between is "I dont know."

We can come up with fancy little frameworks that conclude something is "most probably true" but they violate the laws of logic. What were really saying when we say something is "most probably true is both "we dont know" and "theres no way to know."
All you get is your perception of the laws of logic, which are in your head, not the actual laws of logic, so deductive arguments don't get you anywhere either.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:49 PM   #214
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

[QUOTE=Original Position;54653398]Representations of the sun are in my head, and depend for their existence on my head existing. Agreed. Stop arguing for something we already agree about. Here's the claim we don't agree about. The sun itself - the giant, blazing hot, 864,337 mile-wide ball of gas is also in my head and so depends for its existence on my head existing. That I don't agree with.



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Nah, I can't prove the existence of an external world.
Correct. So you cant prove the existence of the sun.

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I also can't prove the existence of an internal world
You probably just did.

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of other minds, of moral rules, of god, of immortality or mortality, of the laws of logic, mathematics, or really just about anything except perhaps perceptions happening


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Nonetheless, I believe in some of these things and not in others of them. One thing I believe in is the existence of the sun as a giant gasball in space approximately 93,000,000 miles away and that it is way too big to fit inside my head.
Yep, and you believe it without logical justification and you cant prove it. The only thing that you can prove (and only to yourself) is that you perceive things. Good. Im glad we agree and that's out of the way.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:52 PM   #215
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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That matches quite well.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:54 PM   #216
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

it made me quite happy
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:54 PM   #217
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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No it's not. Begging the question is when I use the conclusion of an argument as one of its premises. I've not presented an argument at all. I'm merely stating facts about the world, such as the size of the sun and the size of my head. If you disagree about how big either of these things are, let me know.
The statement "the sun exists outside my head" is in fact a conclusion about reality whether or not you realize it. You also use your perception (which should be your premise) to prove that conclusion. That is, in fact, begging the question.

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DIT: Or maybe you don't disagree, but you think a sun that is 864,377 miles wide can fit inside my less than a mile wide head?
The assertion that the sun has diameter is a conclusion about the nature of reality. You then use your perception, which is a premise, to prove that conclusion. You are begging the question, whether or not you realize it.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:55 PM   #218
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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it made me quite happy
I lol'd
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:57 PM   #219
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Yep, and you believe it without logical justification and you cant prove it. The only thing that you can prove (and only to yourself) is that you perceive things. Good. Im glad we agree and that's out of the way.
Lol. This way of arguing is great. Let's see...two-parent households are an important part of successful child-rearing in the modern world. No, they aren't, because the only thing you can prove is the cogito.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:58 PM   #220
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

tbh OrP isn't begging the question about the size of the sun, he's just making a bare assertion :P
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:01 PM   #221
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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tbh OrP isn't begging the question about the size of the sun, he's just making a bare assertion :P
He is assuming the conclusion is true by virtue of his premise. He is begging the question.

"I can see outer reality so outer reality is actually there."
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:04 PM   #222
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Lol. This way of arguing is great. Let's see...two-parent households are an important part of successful child-rearing in the modern world. No, they aren't, because the only thing you can prove is the cogito.
Partially true. The primary thing you can know with absolute certainty is that you perceive

The opposite is rendered absurd when it's attempted.

"I do not perceive" assumes the existence of I, which requires perception of I

This is why logic is true.

Assume: A v ~A
Asserting the contrary: A is ~A
Assertion requires the law of identity you attempt to disprove
Assertion is false, assumption is true

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Old 01-04-2019, 08:05 PM   #223
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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The statement "the sun exists outside my head" is in fact a conclusion about reality whether or not you realize it. You also use your perception (which should be your premise) to prove that conclusion. That is, in fact, begging the question.

The assertion that the sun has diameter is a conclusion about the nature of reality. You then use your perception, which is a premise, to prove that conclusion. You are begging the question, whether or not you realize it.
I've perceived that nothing brings you more joy than making up claims and arguments to put in my mouth, but my perception of your joy in doing so doesn't logically imply that I actually made those arguments. Rather, here's an assertion:

The sun is 864,377 miles wide.

I believe this assertion is true. I don't believe that perception proves this assertion to be true. My belief that this assertion is true is a belief that is not proven as I have acknowledged. Nonetheless, it is my belief about reality. You making up an argument I didn't use myself and declaring it fallacious is your own problem.

I've now asked this numerous times without an answer and it is a really simple question: do you also believe that the sun is approximately 864,377 miles wide?
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:06 PM   #224
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

Nah, he didn't make that argument. That's why it's better to call it a bare assertion. It's not reasonable to infer that argument.

Of course his point is that on a reasonable conversation you would be expected to accept well established scientific facts without requiring a laborious demonstration of the fact that the sun is really big compared to his head.


The retreat to philosophical skepticism is boring but also mostly self defeating
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:11 PM   #225
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Partially true. The primary thing you can know with absolute certainty is that you perceive

The opposite is rendered absurd when its attempted.

"I do not perceive" assumes the existence of I, which requires perception of I
But as you said earlier:

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Originally Posted by Do0rDoNot View Post
We can come up with fancy little frameworks that conclude something is "most probably true" but they violate the laws of logic. What were really saying when we say something is "most probably true is both "we dont know" and "theres no way to know."
So I guess you just don't know and there's no way to know about those two-parent households and whether they are better for raising children.
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