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Originally Posted by Original Position
A proof of immortality: can I imagine a time when I'm dead. No, because in order to imagine myself dead, I must be alive to do the imagining.
Similar I guess, but it's more that a mind cannot imagine what it would be like to not exist. Without a mind, imaginations of anything are impossible, as imaginations are a function of the mind, so imaginations of non-existence both require the mind to exist and not exist; an impossibility.
Similarly, imagining a universe without minds requires both the existence of minds and the nonexistence of minds; an impossibility.
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A flaw here is that it is not necessary that I imagine myself dead in order to be dead.
It's impossible to imagine yourself dead.
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Similarly, it is not necessary that I imagine the universe to be without a mind in order for it to be without a mind.
It's impossible to imagine the universe without a mind.
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The result of D0DN's argument given his assumptions is not that I can't die or that the universe necessarily has a mind, but rather that there is a whole bunch of possible states of the universe that we can't imagine.
Not that we can't imagine, that its
impossible to imagine.
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That is, it is possible that I die, but I can't imagine this, and it is possible that there is no mind in the universe, but I can't imagine this either.
Correct, it's impossible to imagine it.
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D0DN wants to bring the observer/reasoner as a necessary part of any premise, while keeping the universality of a conclusion without that observer/reasoner.
No. The universality of the conclusion follows from the universality of the premise. What
you cant do is assume premises where minds dont exist, because it is impossible to assume premises without a mind!