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Old 01-04-2019, 01:02 PM   #151
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

I think your metaphysics has other issues, but that still doesn't create a problem in this case, because even if the imagined universe is part of the larger universe it's still not identical to the larger universe, and while the larger "real" universe has minds my imagined universe does not.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:08 PM   #152
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

Any imagined universe requires a universe with minds, because imagining cannot be done without a mind.

Your "imagined universe without minds" is absurd without the assumption of the existence of minds, as imaginations cannot exist apart from minds!

You must assume the existence of mind to imagine anything!

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Old 01-04-2019, 01:10 PM   #153
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

You're still equivocating between the universe in which I am imagining things and the imagined universe, which does not contain minds.

(This should be apparent in the way you've substituted the word "requires". So I agree that it "requires" a mind to imagine a universe, but that is different from the original statement #1, and equivalent to statement #2, which is exactly what I'm pointing out when I say you're equivocating between them. If you go back to the origin of this little sidebar it had to do with the relationships between things like chairs and chair legs, and whether one could imagine a chair without legs, or a universe without minds. It's the properties of the imagined object which matter here, not the process by which imagination occurs)
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:18 PM   #154
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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You seem to be missing the point that the imagined universe is not the actual universe. You're basically arguing that we're incapable of imagining things which don't exist, which is false. (And you're still equivocating but we've covered that).
A proof of immortality: can I imagine a time when I'm dead. No, because in order to imagine myself dead, I must be alive to do the imagining.

A flaw here is that it is not necessary that I imagine myself dead in order to be dead. Similarly, it is not necessary that I imagine the universe to be without a mind in order for it to be without a mind. The result of D0DN's argument given his assumptions is not that I can't die or that the universe necessarily has a mind, but rather that there is a whole bunch of possible states of the universe that we can't imagine. That is, it is possible that I die, but I can't imagine this, and it is possible that there is no mind in the universe, but I can't imagine this either.

D0DN wants to bring the observer/reasoner as a necessary part of any premise, while keeping the universality of a conclusion without that observer/reasoner. You don't get both though. You can claim that a mind is necessary to imagine a universe, but it doesn't logically follow that the mind is necessary to a universe. Similarly, you can claim that it is necessary for me to imagine myself dead that I be alive, but it doesn't logically follow that it is necessary that to be dead I must be alive.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:23 PM   #155
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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You're still equivocating between the universe in which I am imagining things and the imagined universe, which does not contain minds.

(This should be apparent in the way you've substituted the word "requires". So I agree that it "requires" a mind to imagine a universe
It also requires a universe with minds to imagine anything, so attempting to imagine a universe without them begs the question.

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ut that is different from the original statement #1, and equivalent to statement #2, which is exactly what I'm pointing out when I say you're equivocating between them. If you go back to the origin of this little sidebar it had to do with the relationships between things like chairs and chair legs, and whether one could imagine a chair without legs, or a universe without minds. It's the properties of the imagined object which matter here, not the process by which imagination occurs)
The property is inseparable from the process in this case.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:25 PM   #156
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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The result of D0DN's argument given his assumptions is not that I can't die or that the universe necessarily has a mind, but rather that there is a whole bunch of possible states of the universe that we can't imagine. That is, it is possible that I die, but I can't imagine this, and it is possible that there is no mind in the universe, but I can't imagine this either.
I see your point, but I also think even the more limited conclusion ("I can't imagine a universe without minds") is false. I think I can even imagine that I am dead. I can imagine people going to my funeral, saying nice things about me, and so on. I don't think his assumptions lead to the conclusion that I am unable to do so.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:36 PM   #157
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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I see your point, but I also think even the more limited conclusion ("I can't imagine a universe without minds") is false. I think I can even imagine that I am dead. I can imagine people going to my funeral, saying nice things about me, and so on. I don't think his assumptions lead to the conclusion that I am unable to do so.
Sure, I agree it's false, but granting a false premise and showing that it still doesn't lead to a desired conclusion requires less change to the background beliefs of the person you're arguing with.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:40 PM   #158
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Sure, I agree it's false, but granting a false premise and showing that it still doesn't lead to a desired conclusion requires less change to the background beliefs of the person you're arguing with.
fair point
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:44 PM   #159
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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A proof of immortality: can I imagine a time when I'm dead. No, because in order to imagine myself dead, I must be alive to do the imagining.
Similar I guess, but it's more that a mind cannot imagine what it would be like to not exist. Without a mind, imaginations of anything are impossible, as imaginations are a function of the mind, so imaginations of non-existence both require the mind to exist and not exist; an impossibility.

Similarly, imagining a universe without minds requires both the existence of minds and the nonexistence of minds; an impossibility.

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A flaw here is that it is not necessary that I imagine myself dead in order to be dead.
It's impossible to imagine yourself dead.

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Similarly, it is not necessary that I imagine the universe to be without a mind in order for it to be without a mind.
It's impossible to imagine the universe without a mind.

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The result of D0DN's argument given his assumptions is not that I can't die or that the universe necessarily has a mind, but rather that there is a whole bunch of possible states of the universe that we can't imagine.
Not that we can't imagine, that its impossible to imagine.

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That is, it is possible that I die, but I can't imagine this, and it is possible that there is no mind in the universe, but I can't imagine this either.
Correct, it's impossible to imagine it.

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D0DN wants to bring the observer/reasoner as a necessary part of any premise, while keeping the universality of a conclusion without that observer/reasoner.
No. The universality of the conclusion follows from the universality of the premise. What you cant do is assume premises where minds dont exist, because it is impossible to assume premises without a mind!
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:00 PM   #160
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

An imaginative universe is a strange, wonderful being.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:01 PM   #161
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

Here let's try this proof Let's assume you can imagine a universe without minds. To imagine a universe without minds is to imagine it without your own mind. Since imaginations exist in your mind, if your own mind doesnt exist then neither can its imaginations. Therefore, the assumption that you can imagine a universe without minds is false.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:11 PM   #162
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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No. The universality of the conclusion follows from the universality of the premise. What you cant do is assume premises where minds dont exist, because it is impossible to assume premises without a mind!
Possibility is not the same thing as conceivability. Possibility has to do with the limitations of the universe, conceivability has to do with the limitations of our minds. Your argument is that we can't conceive of a universe without a mind, but that doesn't mean that it isn't possible for the universe to exist without a mind, just that we can't conceive of that universe. For other examples, think of the various claims of negative theology.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:14 PM   #163
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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To imagine a universe without minds is to imagine it without your own mind.
This is still just the same equivocation between "imagine it as existing without your mind contained within it" and "imagine it without using your mind".
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:16 PM   #164
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Possibility is not the same thing as conceivability. Possibility has to do with the limitations of the universe, conceivability has to do with the limitations of our minds. Your argument is that we can't conceive of a universe without a mind, but that doesn't mean that it isn't possible for the universe to exist without a mind, just that we can't conceive of that universe. For other examples, think of the various claims of negative theology.
That's a bold claim, that aspects of the universe are inconceivable. It undercuts the fundamental assumption of science, for one.

It's a much bolder claim that the universe is ultimately unintelligible than that the universe is perceptual/mental by nature.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:18 PM   #165
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Here let's try this proof Let's assume you can imagine a universe without minds. To imagine a universe without minds is to imagine it without your own mind. Since imaginations exist in your mind, if your own mind doesnt exist then neither can its imaginations. Therefore, the assumption that you can imagine a universe without minds is false.
This is clearly invalid for the reason well named has already stated. The universe I'm imagining when I imagine a universe without minds is not the same universe as the universe we live in right now.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:23 PM   #166
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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This is clearly invalid for the reason well named has already stated. The universe I'm imagining when I imagine a universe without minds is not the same universe as the universe we live in right now.
What's the point of talking about universes that don't exist?
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:27 PM   #167
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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What's the point of talking about universes that don't exist?
To make claims about what is or is not possible.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:35 PM   #168
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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To make claims about what is or is not possible.
Properties of universes that don't exist have no bearing on the universe that does.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:38 PM   #169
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Properties of universes that don't exist have no bearing on the universe that does.
Yes, many philosophers believe that modal claims have no truth value. Is that your claim as well?
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:38 PM   #170
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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This is clearly invalid for the reason well named has already stated. The universe I'm imagining when I imagine a universe without minds is not the same universe as the universe we live in right now.
It is valid, because any imagination of any other universe is still necessarily part of this universe. You're begging the question.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:39 PM   #171
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Properties of universes that don't exist have no bearing on the universe that does.
No one said they did, but remember we reached this cul-de-sac by starting here:

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One can imagine a chair without a leg because it's not necessarily true that a chair has legs.... One cannot imagine a universe without mind.
In other words, you were rejecting an argument on the basis that supposedly it's necessarily true that a universe has minds. The word necessary is itself a reference to possibility, usually understood in terms of possible or conceivable universes. It is also not necessary true that a universe has minds, so your counter-argument fails.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:40 PM   #172
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Yes, many philosophers believe that modal claims have no truth value. Is that your claim as well?
Listen, to claim something is possible apart from the universe we inhabit is to claim that something can exist apart from the universe we inhabit. Even your conception of anything "outside" the universe is contained within it!
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:42 PM   #173
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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No one said they did, but remember we reached this cul-de-sac by starting here:
OrP just said that very thing, that imagining universes that dont exist gives us truth about what does.



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In other words, you were rejecting an argument on the basis that supposedly it's necessarily true that a universe has minds. The word necessary is itself a reference to possibility, usually understood in terms of possible or conceivable universes. It is also not necessary true that a universe has minds, so your counter-argument fails.
It is necessarily true because arguing against it is to argue against arguing. See the proof. This universe must contain minds. Any conception of a universe without minds, which I've already shown is impossible, would still be part of this universe.

You cant conceive of other universes existing without this universe. To attempt to do so simply begs the question.

The conclusions are that this universe must exist and minds must exist in this universe. Even if conceptions of other universes, without minds, was logically possible itd still depend on the universe that contains minds.

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Old 01-04-2019, 03:01 PM   #174
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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Imaginary universes are real
How?

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Imagined things do exist, of course.
How?



Do we need to go into your definition of "real" or "exist"?
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:06 PM   #175
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Re: Properties of humans are properties of the universe

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How?
They exist, as conceptions, which are in minds, which are in the universe-->they are real, they are part of the universe (all that is real), and the universe as it is is definitionally dependent as all that it contains



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How?
As above



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Do we need to go into your definition of "real" or "exist"?
Briefly, probably the same as anyone else. The universe is all that and only that which is real. Conceptions are real and exist, in the mind, minds exist in the universe, and the universe is defined as all that it contains (all that is real).
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