Original Position:

See my response at Post 25. When you get there, notice astronaut Charlie Duke's VIEWPOINT DESCRIPTION of how earth appeared to him from outer space. Keep in mind that Charlie Duke, a trained scientist, must have known that earth is a sphere. But did he describe it as looking like a sphere during his intereview?

Here is the weblink to post 25:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...4&postcount=25



Alter2Ego


________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Lunkwill:

I quoted from The Free Dictionary which defines "four corners of the earth" as: "The far ends of the world; all parts of the world."

Since you're convinced that, when used in the Judeo-Christian Bible, the term "four corners of the earth" is literal, then the dictionary should have defined it as being literal. The Free Dictionary said the expression is an idiom. Let's try Merriam Webster's Dictionary and see if they say anything different.

"from the four corners of the earth idiom

Definition of from the four corners of the earth
: from everywhere : from all over
People came from the four corners of the earth to see the sight."
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dict...%20the%20earth

You were debunked by two common English dictionaries, both of which confirm that the expression "four corners of the earth" is nothing more than an idiom. If you are still not pleased, and you want them to say it is literal (because you are convinced the Bible was being literal when it used that specific expression), I suggest you write to The Free Dictionary and Merriam Webster's Dictionary and lodge a complaint.


Alter2Ego

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"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18[/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]

It's ALL idiom & poetry!
I repeat that it would be infinitely more convincing if the bible stated something specific and unequivocal about something that could not possibly be known at the time (something SPECIFIC and QUANTIFIABLE about the structure of DNA or quantum mechanics for example). Otherwise, all this reminds me of all the charlatans who claim they can talk to the dead. "Amazingly", the dead never have anything specific, surprising, or verifiable to say.

Lunkwill:

It seems you ignored the second sentence in paragraph 1 of my OP, namely:

"Unlike the bibles of other religions, there is EVIDENCE the Judeo-Christian Bible was divinely inspired by Jehovah. Not only does it contain almost 2,000 accurately fulfilled prophesies, but Bible writers had special information that was not discovered by scientists and explorers until centuries later. Below are two such examples.

For your information, many Bible prophecies have been confirmed by secular history. And some of the prophecies were about events that were, to quote you: "specific and unequivocal about something that could not possibly be known at the time."

Not only that, I gave the two scriptures where the Prophet Isaiah (at Isaiah 40:22) and Job (Job 26:7) both described how earth appears from outer space, and they gave those viewpoint descriptions under divine inspiration. Isaiah wrote that from above, earth appears circular. Job wrote that when viewed from outer space, earth appears to hang upon nothing. Both of those viewpoint descriptions were confirmed by astronaut astronaut Charlie Duke--the 10th man on the moon--during an interview, and both of those Biblical viewpoint descriptions were "specific and unequivocal about something that could not possibly be known at the time."

Here is the weblink to Charlie Duke's quotation at Post 25:
https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/s...4&postcount=25



Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Please direct me to these alleged "2,000 accurately fulfilled prophesies".
And please... no "bible code" nonsense!

Even better: Instead of digging into the bible and trying to find proof of "fulfilled prophesies" of stuff that has happened, how about a (specific) prediction of future events?

You are importing your own bias into your reading of the Bible here. The passage says nothing about this being a viewpoint description of what the earth looks like from space. It just describes the earth as a circle. You know that this is false, so you claim the author means that it just looks like a circle from space, rather than claiming that it actually is a circle.

Since I don't have your assumptions that the author must be speaking the truth, I interpret these passages more naturally, as describing a circular earth.

Still waiting to hear about those ""2,000 accurately fulfilled prophesies"....
I's settle for 100! ;-)

There are zero impressive prophecies in scripture. It's a constant self-deceptive refrain from the indoctrinated to allude to this as a reason for believing, and then never go any deeper either in their explanation or in the privacy of their own faith. It's a gimmick, a "trick the self and bluff the other guy" ploy. And when you consider the awesome types of prophecy that would have been possible to an omniscient god, the whole claim is a pitiful ruse.

Of course no such prophecies exist!
That's why I'm curious what these alleged "2000 accurately fulfilled prophesies" could be. I'm guessing that the poster is referring to the discredited "bible codes" from 20+ years ago where some people used computers to mine biblical text to find "prophecies". The whole thing was kinda sad and others later proved you could find such "prophecies" in ANY sufficiently large book! (I think they used "War & Peace".)

I've seen Jesus move. Other people were there, so I know it wasn't a trick of the mind. I wouldn't even be Christian if not for one huge event. I didn't know protestant from east to west, etc.. it's good that God exists and there is purpose. What are atheists even saying? Meaning from a meaningless universe? I just can't grasp any of it. They say they're right because they can put odds on things... look at those odds. Atheists shouldn't meth around. LOL

You've seen Jesus move?

Original Position:

Astronaut Charlie Duke said earth looks like a circle when viewed from outer space. He was there. He confirmed the Biblical viewpoint description and even quoted the scripture, while admitting that he was not a religious man. Below again is what astronaut Charlie Duke said.

"But I had a beautiful view of Earth as we orbited prior to landing and after landing. We had about 24 hours in orbit before we landed and about 24 after. So you could see the Earth rise above the lunar surface, and it was a half Earth in the sky. So you saw the polar ice caps, the clouds in between, and a lot of blue ocean. Rarely could you make out a landmass from the lunar distance of what, like Europe or Asia or anything like that. It was beautiful. It just suspended in the blackness of space. The two verses come to mind in scripture. In Isaiah, the 40th chapter, God says, it says, "God sits enthroned above the circle of the earth." Of course, we didn't see God, but we did see the CIRCLE of the earth. And then in the book of Job, I think its 26th chapter it says, "When God made the earth, He suspended it upon nothing." And that's exactly how it looks to you as you look back at the Earth, just hung in the blackness of space."
https://hope1032.com.au/stories/fait...th-aaron-erin/

FYI: Charlie Duke is still alive as far as I know. So if you can't accept that Isaiah was giving a viewpoint description of how earth looks from outer space, why don't you contact eye witness Charlie Duke and accuse him to his face of, to quote you: "importing your own bias into your reading of the Bible here."

Let us all know how that turns out.


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Still waiting to hear about those ""2,000 accurately fulfilled prophesies"....

Charlie Duke was a born-again Christian public speaker when he gave that interview and described the the view of Earth as reminding him of those passages.

Again, you are claiming that this literally false description of the earth as a circle is a proof that the Bible was inspired by God, because how else would the authors know it to be true. This is an obviously invalid proof given that the passage you are taking as a proof-text is actually false when taken literally. I'm not claiming that my interpretation must be true - who knows for sure what the author writing 2500 years ago really meant - but your interpretation is only a possible one, and not even the most likely without your prior theological commitments. I don't mind if you want to take this passage as giving a viewpoint description rather than a description of reality - if you are committed to the view that the Bible must be true then you often have to strain to find alternative interpretations of passages that seem to make false statements. But I don't have this commitment. Claiming on the basis of this commitment that your interpretation is correct and proves that the Bible is inspired is obvious circular reasoning.

How would Charlie Duke know what the author of Isaiah 40 really meant? I don't dispute that a sphere without depth can look like a circle. The moon also looks like a circle, although we know it is actually a sphere. What I am challenging is your assumption that the author of Isaiah 40 meant to be giving a literally inaccurate description of the shape of earth and without clarifying this in the passages was really giving a description of how a sphere (earth) might look like from space.

I agree.

Original Position:

Exactly. That's the viewpoint that Charlie Duke saw from outer space while he was non-religious. It inspired him to become religious. He saw a CIRCLE rather than a sphere, because that's how earth looked from his viewpoint above it.


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Original Position:

Of course you can't dispute that a sphere can look like a circle from a certain vantage point. That hasn't stopped you and your atheist pals on this website from devoting endless posts telling me that Isaiah, who was earthbound, could not have known that earth looks like a circle when viewed from above--despite the fact that's what he was inspired by Jehovah to write.

The atheists' initial argument was that earth is a sphere and that the Bible had it wrong when it said earth looks like a circle to someone dwelling above it, as follows:

THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE:
"There is One who is dwelling above the CIRCLE of the earth, the dwellers in which are as grasshoppers, the One who is stretching out the heavens just as a fine gaze, who spread them out like a tent in which to dwell," (Isaiah 40:22)

EYE WITNESS, ASTRONAUT CHARLIE DUKE:
"In Isaiah, the 40th chapter, God says, it says, "God sits enthroned above the circle of the earth." Of course, we didn't see God, but we did see the CIRCLE of the earth."
https://hope1032.com.au/stories/fait...th-aaron-erin/

Now that astronaut Charlie has debunked that argument by confirming that what he saw from his vantage point in outer space was a CIRCLE not a SPHERE, you are now presenting a red herring--trying to abandon the original argument, as follows:

The atheists further argue that earth does not hang upon nothing, when, in fact, that is exactly how it looks to someone in a space craft above it--as confirmed by astronaut Charlie Duke.

THE JUDEO-CHRISTIAN BIBLE:
"He [God] is stretching out the north over the empty place, hanging the earth upon nothing;" (Job 26:7)

EYE WITNESS, ASTRONAUT CHARLIE DUKE:
"And then in the book of Job, I think its 26th chapter it says, "When God made the earth, He suspended it upon nothing." And that's exactly how it looks to you as you look back at the Earth, just hung in the blackness of space."
https://hope1032.com.au/stories/fait...th-aaron-erin/

I clearly stated in my OP that the Bible had information that was well ahead of its time, and I gave Isaiah 40:22 and Job 26:7 as examples. None of the atheists on this website have been able to overcome the fact that the Bible was right on point with those viewpoint descriptions of earth, when viewed from outer space. You cannot overcome that, because you were debunked by an astronaut who viewed the earth from outer space and who confirmed the Biblical viewpoint descriptions.

Isaiah and Job had never been in outer space. Neither of those two men were required to explain that they were giving viewpoint descriptions. Jehovah gave both men the necessary information that would be confirmed centuries later by modern-day astronauts.


Alter2Ego

________________
"That people may know that you, whose name is JEHOVAH, you alone are the Most High over all the earth." ~ Psalms 83:18

Given that you say you have 1,999 other "accurately fulfilled prophesies", it strikes me as more than a little pathetic that you are putting all your eggs in this very weak argument. Come on! You don't have to cite all 2,000 of them! Just a few hundred would be fine! ;-)

This is false. I've made no such claim.

There is no initial atheist argument here. You are the OP of this thread. You are the one making a positive argument that the Bible is inspired by God. All I've argued for here is that your argument fails. That doesn't imply that your conclusion is false. It's not that implausible to me that the author of Isaiah 40 believed the earth was a sphere. I don't think this shows the Bible was inspired by God. As I pointed out already, some Greek thinkers had reached this conclusion around the same time. I just also think your interpretation of this passage is weak, based more on your bias than a natural reading of the text.

Nah. You claimed a verse that falsely described the earth as a circle is actually meant to describe how the earth looks from space. That verse doesn't say that it is giving a viewpoint description of earth from space. It just says that the earth is a circle - something that many people at that time believed. But you are biased and so import modern assumptions about the actual shape of the earth into your interpretation of the Bible and so make a speculative claim that the author is describing how something looks rather than what it is (a claim not made in the verse itself).

Nah, I've made no argument here about the Bible being false, you just fail to follow the argument here. You claimed based on a speculative reading of these verses that the Bible described a cosmology that is consistent with the modern cosmological viewpoint. You claimed that this constituted a "proof" that the Bible is inspired by God. This argument fails because your speculative reading of these verses are just that: speculative. Based on another interpretation of the passage in Isaiah - a more literal and natural reading - the earth is instead described as a flat circle, which is not consistent with modern cosmology. Thus, there is no independent reason given here by you to think that the Bible is inspired by God.

Isn't it telling that the very things that Gruden disgraced himself with and was forced to resign over -- racism, homophobia, misogyny, bigotry -- are tenets of the Christian religion? When we combine these Gruden-like elements with stonings, infanticide, fetusicide, genocide, slavery, vampirism, etc. in the good book, the category is: When Religion Is Superstitious, Ignorant And Evil.

And so, when we are trapped within it, we say to ourselves three times: "It is one of the religions. It is one of the religions. It is one of the religions. Nothing more."

Then you can start to make inroads against the intensely blinding nature and special privilege that we grant to the religion of our culture or our choice. And when a real investigation into the historicity of it is attempted, we see the patchwork borrowed nature of our religion like all others ... devised, designed, assembled, concocted. Comparative religion study renders them so similar in this fabrication and motive. Unless we are stuck within it, that it, saying of the resurrection, "Well, the Bible says ..." And we prove our indoctrination every time we take this tack of quoting the religion to validate the religion.

I don’t even know what the term “Judeo-Christian” values actually means but I like it. I used to hate Christians until I discovered the power of the Bible.