OK first thing I want to point out is:



How in the world could a book so small explain existence? For ALL the suffering, evil, creation, evolution etc. that has occurred in 14 billion years, how could it all be explained and justified in a book that small?

One would think to explain and justify all events, atrocities, suffering and joy...etc. that has occurred over the 14 billion years the universe has existed....wouldn't this book have to be ENORMOUS? I mean to explain all the things it has claimed to explain or SHOULD explain, I would think it would have to be the size of a small city with literally millions of pages to explain all of this.

Instead it is small enough to hold in your hand.

I also have serious, serious problems about the content.

I will allow for the assumption that a god exists for the sake of this argument.

Assuming god exists, gods got his scribe, I wonder to myself, what kind of fascinating materials must the creator of everything have in store for me in this book? My mind jumps in excitement for explanations!

Instead, in reading the bible (or the koran, or any "holy" book) I find not one single idea or concept that could not have been authored by a 1st century human.

There are pages about sacrificing animals.

There are pages about keeping slaves.

There are pages about how well to feed and clothe those slaves.

There are pages about who you should kill.

There are pages about why you should kill those people.

There are pages about women keeping their silence and obedience in places where men are allowed to speak.

There are no pages explaining the nature of the stars.

There are no pages explaining the nature of galaxies.

There are no pages explaining electricity.

There are no pages explaining DNA.

There are no pages explaining infectious disease.

There are no pages explaining why the sun will eventually expand into earth and incinerate everything on its surface.

Etc. I think you get the idea.

There is nothing of particular value to us in the 21st century. There are barbaric concepts and superstitions.

I would not say this is a book that was written or inspired by the divine creator of the universe. The divine creator of the universe would have covered ALL bases of knowledge, not simply the ones that were available in the 1st century.

We can all go into any book store, any library and pick up a book blindly that will have more wisdom and information to educate and help us in the 21st century. All of our sciences has surpassed the 1st century ideals presented as "perfect" in the bible.

I'm now going to ask that people actually respond to my OP. The last thread I started, I had droves of religious people coming in to pick apart random parts of other peoples' posts without ever acknowledging my first one.

I also want to state, that I am not being hateful in this at all...but BigErf, if you wish to reply to this I will not be reading or reply to your post. You have stated previously that you cannot possibly moved from Christianity, which is the definition of dogma. This closed mindedness to the power of conversation, reason, and new data I personally feel, speaks for itself as to why I will not be responding to you. I hope in the future you become more open to new data and reasoning. I also want to remind everyone that though I am atheist, I could be moved in an instant to believe in any single god, given the correct logic, reasoning, and evidence. I do not wish to deal with people on the other side of the argument that won't value reason and evidence over dogmatism.

In before Splendour makes a post about God not wanting to explain everything because the Devil is listening.

For anyone who wants to listen..

The Bible wasn’t written to explain the universe or electricity or DNA or any of the things that rizeagainst is questioning. The Bible was written for you, alone. Inside of those pages is a connection. A connection between you and the Creator of the universe. For yes, the Creator of the universe wants to have a relationship with you, the little worm crawling around on this dust ball floating in space we call earth.

When man reads the Bible he is seeing first hand the personality of the Creator in the person of Jesus Christ. God entered this world in the form of Jesus Christ so that man could identify himself. We are man and Jesus is man. All of the questions regarding sacrifice of animals and other horrific images given in the Old Testament are for foundation purposes and to show the customs of how we have evolved. We do not need to know material relative to the 21st Century because the information given is for any man at any time period. And it is this way because the Book is about a man, simply.

A Man that we can identify with. A Man that not only teaches but shows how to live by Words along with example. A Man that gave His own life to show that He cared what happened to you, personally. Reading the Bible is about emulating the one who you are reading about. It is not important, these other questions you ask for, because even with the answers to them there is still a problem left unsolved.. the problem of the one asking.

If you knew about DNA or the nature of the stars would you be more generous and kind to your neighbor? Would you be happier about the reflection that glared back at you in the mirror? The Bible doesn’t solve life’s mysteries. The Bible solves your mysteries. It tells you who and what you are and where you are going. It is meant to guide you and give you comfort in the troubles of the mysteries that the world gives you.

I can’t emphasize enough how unimportant the Old Testament is in relation to your life. The New Testament is what you need to master. The New Testament is the story of God personally giving you life. This life that you are given is not measured in years but in Spirit. The accomplishment meant to gain is that of the Holy Spirit. And by reading and studying this Man Jesus Christ, a part of Him rubs of on you in the way that your childhood idols also made you want to be more like them. You gain a part of God, the Creator of the universe’s Spirit.

The Bible truly is a spectacular blueprint to Mankind. And it does what it says it does. It “saves” you. It saves you from yourself. It gives you the answers that you need to know to accomplish within what needs to be done in order to love yourself and the people and events that happen in your life. It negates insecurity and self worth issues. It allows any man of any race to be equal to the next and the Bible allows you to LIVE this truth. Because as I’ve said before when you KNOW God exists, I mean truly KNOW He is out there…. THAT CHANGES EVERYTHING!

Its the book of salvation not the Encylopedia Brittanica.

B Basic
I Instruction
B Before
L Leaving
E Earth

Why do you think slave upkeep was important enough to mention?

Slaves in those days, mostly, were not the same as we think about them. Many people would sell themselves into slavery to survive. It was more of a unfortunate byproduct of that time.

The bible is very clear that you are never to sell anyone into slavery. So slavery in the way that we think of it was strictly prohibited in the bible.

When the bible talks about slaves it is more like talking about people with jobs today. Aren't we all slaves to one degree or another?

No, we're not. At least not to any degree that makes the comparison valuable in this discussion.

Trying to draw distinctions between slavery then and slavery, say, 150 years ago, is not really how I'd like to see this addressed. You can pretend that at the time slavery was more voluntary (aka not slavery), but you're bull****ting yourself.

Why is beating a slave so badly that he dies days later acceptable, but beating him to an immediate death is not? What does God see as the moral difference there?

Why do you think slavery is such a bad thing?

We're all slaves to something.

You can be a slave to sin or you can be a slave to God but in God there's ultimate freedom. You only have to do your term until the Jubilee or 7th year when he sets you free.

It's funny how you can see the term "slavery" as debatable (or relative) because the Bible doesn't forbid it, but you see words like "lie", "steal", and "gluttony" as absolutes because the Bible does forbid them.

Actually, change funny to scary.

Yeah, and I'm a slave to chocolate ice cream, but WTF does that have to do with what the Bible is talking about?

Yeah, I did not just make that up. It is a history fact that people sold themselves into "slavery" There are actually many stories where people in the bible sold themselves into "slavery". I do not see much difference between what they did and what I did when I took this job.

And I am not saying that the other form of slavery did not exist. But is was strictly forbid in the bible.

If I tell you that I will work for you for 2 months is you give me food and shelter and you agree

is that the same thing as you kidnapping me and forcing me to work for you against my will?

If you read the first chapter of Proverbs (I particularly like the CEV edition) it says something about it.

I'll post it...hold on.

Here it is:

Proverbs 1 (Contemporary English Version)

Proverbs 1
How Proverbs Can Be Used
1These are the proverbs
of King Solomon of Israel,

the son of David.

2Proverbs will teach you

wisdom and self-control

and how to understand

sayings with deep meanings.

3You will learn what is right

and honest and fair.

4From these, an ordinary person

can learn to be smart,

and young people can gain

knowledge and good sense.

5If you are already wise,

you will become even wiser.

And if you are smart,

you will learn to understand

6proverbs and sayings,

as well as words of wisdom

and all kinds of riddles.

7Respect and obey the LORD!

This is the beginning

of knowledge. [a] Only a fool rejects wisdom

and good advice.

A. I am fully aware of the surrounding context here - I took a rather extensive course on the development of slavery. You're acting as if all slavery was voluntary. Voluntary slaves were a minority.

B. How does any of this legitimize the advice on beating slaves to death?

edit: Voluntary slaves also did not WANT to become slaves, and in most every situation had very limited, very poor options (usually "die or become a slave")

Why are you ignoring all the negative aspects of slavery that are explicitly allowed in the Bible? Slaves aren't in-house servants.

Conditions were harsh. Often the alternative to voluntary slavery may have been death, or abandonment in the desert (as good as death).

Plenty of slaves were taken against their will, not only does the Bible describe the process of taking foreign slaves, but it also describes children being divided up along with the cattle as spoils of war. Slaves could be beaten to within an inch of death and it was just fine - so long as they lived, that was a valid use of property. Slave girls (no mention of an age restriction) could be "married" at will (no restriction on number of "wives," either), and if they failed to please their "husbands," they were left in the desert to die.

Cite?

You KNOW it's going to be something obscure like Jesus saying "Love thy neighbor" or whatever.

Because if the Bible said "Thou shalt not keep slaves" we wouldn't even be having this conversation (not to mention that slavery would have been abolished LONG before Lincoln).

Most of the talk about slavery was to protect the slave. Again, these were very different times. God never condoned slavery, but worked with what he had to deal with.

All throughout the OT God compromises his will and perfect ideal to accommodate our fallen state.

In parts of the OT God allows for polygamy and concubines. That is not because this is his ideal, but because he has to at times accommodate for our fallen state.

lol @ the idea of God "working with what he had."

My thoughts exactly.

I don't have to justify everything in the OT. I believe God was letting us look at human nature in it and giving us various moral teachings. This was a period of spiritual warfare before the pouring out of the Holy Spirit. Before the Spirit was at work in the world.

I primarily believe on Jesus. Anything before him is wisdom teachings and a statement of God's nature and power. Anything after the Gospels is how to be saved and live correctly in the Redemptive reality.

I think there was a lot of evil in the earliest peoples and they were performing human sacrifice. The Jews didn't. Only animal sacrifice. God was carving out a separate holier people to give his oracles and prophets and covenants to.

again I feel like arguing over the slavery aspect is to belittle the points I made...but just to be clear on this

Not even close. The bible is extremely clear in its endorsing of slavery. Again, for some reason, no Christians ever believe the bible means what it says. They believe it means what they say. We do, however, have access to what the bible really says Jib, and no metaphorical readings can save it.