The point is to ask yourself WWJD. Or even, what would Jesus want you to do. If you think Jesus would c/r a guy all-in to bust him, then you've got one warped view of what it means to be Christian.

I start by being honest. I don't kid myself. Some people I feel bad for knowing they are ruining their lives and marriages due to their gambling problems. Others, I get a sadistic pleasure out of watching the pain on their face after getting a good stacking even though I know they're down to the last of their bankroll.

I justify it with the realization that if I don't take their money, they'll lose it somewhere else. But I also know that this isn't the Christian way to think. I've helped several people get back on their feet and even lent money so they could do this. But if I still were following the Christian faith, I would feel compelled do this with every degenerate gambler I met. At least to get them help. At least to not take part in them losing their money. In short, I would not play poker. There are also probably a good number of trades I wouldn't engage in.

To answer your question, there are people who get hurt playing poker. In my opinion, you have to be a hypocrite to justify taking part in their demise. And this is just with poker, which I'll admit, isn't the greatest hypocritical thing you can do. Christians take part in much worse hypocrisy every day.

Ive played in private game run by drug dealers and filled with gang members. At the end of the last session i tried to collect my money, i was told i was going to get buried in a lake. fun life i live.

I also remember once playing in a bellagio $1k where a woman came running in and started screaming at her husband " you son of a bitch! we cant afford to pay the mortgage for 3 months and this is how you spend the last of our money?" Surprisingly she calmed down relatively quick and watched her husband finish out the tournament. maybe he had alot of chips or something idk

I dont understand, did they pay up and then threaten you, or outright resuse to pay you?

Should've told them 'there's no danger of violence occuring in a poker game, now pay up bitches'

Outright refusal. i actually lost $1k the day before, which he collected.

Ah, WWJD? The guilt-inducing favorite pass time of every good fundamentalist. Well played, sir. Clearly there is no suitable retort. Now I feel guilty for not wearing my bracelet and will be upset with myself the rest of the day.

But seriously, I doubt Jesus would play poker. Seems like an epic waste of time for someone trying to redeem humanity. He also wouldn't have my job, drive my car, live in my house. He may not even like the same beer. But let me also be clear: I'm not trying to be like Jesus. I believe this is an impossible endeavor. I don't expect anyone to be like Jesus. I hate that this is preached in Churches every Sunday, and is one of the many reasons I despise main stream Christianity. If Christ could have accomplished redemption by setting an example we could all follow, then His death is in vain. If we could follow a law and precepts, His death is in vain.

This is very honest. Thank you. Regarding degenerate behavior, I do not feel a burden to help those who don't want my help, but it does sadden me to see people who have let something completely control their life through addiction.

'Help' is a dangerous verb, and should be approached with wisdom and caution. If a degenerate gambler asks me for help, I'd point him to GA. I'd go to a few meetings with him. I'd make sure he has a sponsor. I'd be a person to hold him accountable, should I be needed to bear that responsibility. I'd share my faith with him, and how I feel it has benefited my life. But I'd never give him a dime.

Yes, Christians are hypocrites. I believe that hypocrisy stems from a belief there is a specific rule set that must be followed because morality is given via a holy book. I do not believe that morality is 'given'. It is both inherent (common to all mankind), and learned (common to specific cultures). Therefore, I find it amusing for someone who claims morality, w/o sharing my faith, to call me a hypocrite for participating in a common activity.

What I think doesn't matter here, but this certainly isn't what I was taught. I'd really like to get other Christian's POV though. Do you guys agree? Jib? Splendour? Others?


Interesting and again I ask Christians to respond to this. Do you agree? Is morality inherent to all mankind?

OP my advice to you is to take a hard look at the universe you're living in and reconsider everything you have been taught since birth. I think you will discover, if you are rational and clear thinking, that you have been raised with ancestral myths, not universal truths. The truth is that you are less than a speck of dust on a grain of sand in a universe of ten billion trillion suns. There is no god who takes a personal interest in you or in humanity, as a basic familiarity with modern astronomy will demonstrate. The universe is, outside of our immediate scale of experience, a very alien and indifferent place.

I challenge you to grow up and think bigger about our unlimited future in the Cosmos. There are no limits to the human enterprise other than the laws of nature, and there is no heaven or hell awaiting us. The real "good news" is that the universe is, for all practical purposes, infinite in all directions, and we are its potential gods. Man is not a fallen being. Man is in the process of rising, and by his will and intelligence he may rise still further, without known bounds.

(google "essence of cosmism" for a new religion along these lines that you may want to explore further)

...

Thanks, but can you specifically answer the question of whether you at least try to base your actions on WWJD or what you think he would want you to do?

I think what I specifically do is something I'd rather not comment on as I feel there is a spiritual learning curve for each human being that I ought to respect more.

To OP, I hear you struggling. It can be a bit of a shock coming from the sheltered life of a devoted, religious preacher's kid (I was one too), out into the real world. I too wanted to be "the good kid," please my parents and God, find out his divine plan and do His Will. I was seriously considering becoming a missionary, making it my life's work to travel to other places and tell people about the Good News.

Thank the non-existent gods that I finally had a chance to do some thinking and learning on my own, and that I realized the absurdity of everything I'd been taught. That I actually learned the science behind evolution, and the "proof" of various apologists for various bible stories. Learned a lot about psychology that really helped explained how and why people truly believe such things.

My parents are good people. I think that mostly they do good things. I feel a little sad for them sometimes, their whole lives dedicated to their delusion. I find it worrying that they truly seem to believe that without their fervent belief in their god, they might be terrible people doing terrible things.

I don't expect this post to help you get free. You have a lot invested in this belief, as does your family, and probably most of your friends. Just... if you're feeling lost, you should explore what you believe and WHY. Don't just look at Christian sites, with Christian apologetics. Get both sides. Get MORE sides. Think about what you would believe if you were raised Muslim, or Buddist. THINK about what people are telling you, and why. It really is a harmful delusion. I'm actually a NICER person now, even my parents would agree.


Freudian slip?

This is what exactly what I mean here but I also like the comment how it's not gambling if it's +EV. My main concern is what if one day you do win the main event would you live the false utopia? the Vegas life style? the envy that so many people would want? thats kind of why I respect Eastgate's decision on quitting poker because idk if he's a christian or not don't matter but I believe he wants to find himself n find something in life that no one else can understand.

Sometimes I feel like it be awesome if everyone can be equally happy and not want more in life but to just care for other people. I'm saying like if you truly believe in a God then who cares about this world at all of how rich or famous or poor or in the plain median you are if u believe that there will be a better life when we die. Life is a journey of understanding yourself and what you are here to do to make a difference about it imo.

My parents have def. made impacts on different lives and I wish to one day be that person only it's so hard to walk that rope by yourself but then again it shouldn't matter when you have Jesus on your side.

theres a quote in the bible where it says ( I don't know it if someone knows what i'm talking about let me know):

"If you turn your back of me on earth then i'll turn my back on you in heaven"


this is why I really wanna start making an impact on my soul cause my dad tells me all the time hey man you really never know when your time is up and that's why you always have to be prepared.

All this thread needs is some bible verses:

"Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Matthew 5:48

To answer Jib's earlier questions:

Nowhere. It also doesn't say a host of other things that a reasonable and rational person, including yourself, would consider sinful.

The word is pretty self explanatory imo.

They should not. They should use their money to help the poor and spread His message instead of "storing treasure on earth".

The way 99.9999% of people play poker is greedy. Its disingenuous to say otherwise. If your goal is not to win and make money, then good for you. But for most, especially those posting on this forum, they play poker and gamble to make money.

If they are a brother/sister in Christ, they should encourage them to order something healthy. This is consistent with almost everything Paul says in the NT. Not sure how this is related to gambling/playing poker.

And for kb coolman who says "I'm not trying to be like Jesus", you are right, because you are doing a **** job convincing anyone that Christianity is worth following. Why should they, its no different then their life prior to being a Christian.

This is a perfect example of another standard Christian convincing himself that they aren't living in sin.

It's not gambling if its +EV?

The definition of gambling is pretty clear: "money that is risked for possible monetary gain", "play games for money", "take a risk in the hope of a favorable outcome"

I think that the biggest wrong doing in life one can have is an addiction. Whether its eating, drinking, having sex, doing drugs, playing poker, having job over anything. As long as you get rid of any addictions in life then thats when you reach enlightenment (I know it's not Christian but it's the best way I can describe what I'm trying to say). Of course it is almost impossible to any human to do this because then again we are human. I believe the willingness to do this is what keeps us from feeling better about ourselves but its such a complicated thing even consider explaining. sorry..

I'm honestly trying to understand the hostility. I could be mis-interpreting your tone (one of the many drawbacks of written communication), so I apologize if I'm off base.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to become a Christian. Please find one post or comment I've made that took this tone. Why would I want to do that on a forum that is openly hostile to my beliefs? Furthermore, why would I want to do that in a forum so void of personal connection? I try to respect each individual's thoughts and opinions, and at least try to have an open dialog when possible. Unfortunately, that is not usually reciprocated.

'Be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect'. This verse from Matthew 5 is teaching on loving your enemies. Be perfect In Love. If perfection in the law was even possible, I would not need Christ. I do not consider likeness to Christ to be obtainable. As a matter of fact, this mindset produced so much guilt in my early life that I completely abandoned my faith. I cannot be righteous. I cannot do what is right. I wasn't until I reasoned my own faith that I realized the full impact of grace through the power of Christ. I don't need to be perfect.

kb coolman,

he's saying that your interpretation of christianity would convert 0 non christians because you're not offering anything new. if your interpretation of christianity is correct, there is no incentive to learn about Jesus and Christianity. if He wanted it this way, why would He appear to humans, teach them some things, inspire them to write something, get tortured. clearly, he wanted people to know about Him and His story. So, your interpretation is likely wrong and you are potentially preventing some others from learning about him by telling them "it's all cool. everyone goes to heaven. do whatever you feel like".

kb,

no hostility at all. I just find your stance that you are not trying to be like Jesus *at all* puzzling and confusing.

you then followup by saying: "Be perfect, as your Heavenly Father is perfect'. This verse from Matthew 5 is teaching on loving your enemies. Be perfect In Love." Yet, how can you be perfect in Love if you have no intention to changing yourself to be like Jesus *at all*?

What does Christianity offer a non-believer (besides the carrot on the stick of eternal life) if nothing in their current life needs to change?

But you'll at least admit that if given a choice between pleasing and displeasing Jesus, you'll opt for trying to do that which would please him, right?

Jib, do you really expect me to believe that you are being honest?

I mean cmon man, being gay, as you and everyone wants to so happily coin it, is mentioned in the bible so many times as something that is not right-on, not right in Gods sight, that you would have to be a blind person not to see it, or just don't give a damn.

If you want me to post those places from the bible I can? And if I did, you would then have to blatantly lie, and say that you do not see whats written. Or you could just ignore whats written like most Christians do, when it comes to things that are written that they feel are not PC.

Well that's usually a given about a Christian but using one Christian against another Christian is deceptive. You're allowing ideas/language to control when its the Spirit that should control. The Spirit could be shaping him differently from me for different reasons and/or purposes.

Most atheist posters on this board seem to want to force Christians through some type of literalist mold/stereotype they have in their heads but Christians go through a process.

If you liken our process to roses for example you can come up with a lot of hybrids. Roses come in hundreds of types maybe thousands. They come in different colors, fragrances and sometimes even the shape is affected (I saw a pic of one the other day that looked as much like a carnation as a rose). I think Christians are like that and that could serve as an analogy for why we have so many different denominations. At the essence we are all roses but there is room for variation in type over time with cultivation.

Now look at this page for example....scroll down and see the different roses pics...Some of them I wouldn't identify as roses unless a rose expert told me they were: http://www.rose-gardening-made-easy....-of-roses.html

If there's a God who created the world then he's a God of diversity. There is an essence (a truth) but then there is an interpretation (cultivation) of that truth across time that produces different groups....This could answer by analogy why denominationalism isn't a refutation of the truth. God could want many different types of Christians...how can we prove otherwise when he does it in nature with roses and animals, etc.

nice response bro and in a way ur right about most people not exploring other religions. But then again I know I'm nothing in this world especially in this unierse but it just seems to hard to believe that I came from nothing as well.

as far as i've invested too much i guess in a way yeah its true u feeling sorry for us at times but think of your own investments in life that have been worthless. You are right in a lot of ways and I like ur opinion but I know you feel the same way that even if u did believe in god u would not regret the what uve done here on earth. just like I cannot regret in something that I truly believe in.

No offense but this could be the end of puberty and not religion. At least reading this gave me that impression.

A lot of people pass through an irascible self individuation stage in their teen years that has nothing to do with religion and pitching your parent's religion could have given you a false sense that you're more independent.

Teen rebellion is legendary. People always say "you think he's bad at 2...wait til he's 12" or something of the sort.

Ok, I see what you mean, and how my post was confusing. I'm not the best at conveying my full intentions via written word, and I apologize. When I say I'm not *trying* to be like Jesus, it's because I don't believe it's obtainable. Show me someone who claims to live as Christ, and I'll show you a hypocrite. All the years of my early life spent trying to be like Jesus and failing did nothing but produce guilt. When I let go of that expectation, I was able to live in grace and forgiveness. I do not want the world to look at me as an example of Christ, as I readily admit that I fail miserably to produce his likeness.

But I am a changed person. I have a peace in my life, and compassion for others that was not present before. It's easier for me to forgive people and not harbor resentment for wrong. I give of my time and resources (yes, I tithe), where I didn't before. But all these things are not from a sense of duty or responsibility, but from a sense of love and justice. I want to live in harmony with those around me, because they are all children of God. This is not a result of my trying to be like Jesus, but is a response to the love and acceptance I receive. This may make me more Christ-like, but it is not of my own doing and I cannot claim any glory for it.

You can remove religion from your life and still feel all of the above.