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Pope Francis Condemns Legalization Of Recreational Marijuana Pope Francis Condemns Legalization Of Recreational Marijuana

07-14-2014 , 12:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by neeeel
yes, but what does that actually mean? Not spiritually beneficial? how is that harmful?
I specifically said through the Christian perspective, that if this is against God's will, it can separate you from God, make it less likely for you to hear from him and that you begin to dull and harden you heart with the use of mind-altering drugs. Alcohol abuse is the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
I personally know people, and have read many accounts of people, who insist that weed has been of great benefit to them spiritually, that it facilitates spirituality by opening up their awareness and helping them to achieve a mental state where their spirituality can grow and develop. They don't believe it harmful. How would you explain to them that in fact it is?
I used to get high every day, and I used to think that getting high was the secret of life. I remember looking down at people who didn't get high with a feeling of superiority to them.

I understand the perspective, I listen to Joe Rogan, who's perhaps the most vocal proponent for the legalization and the positive effects of weed, it's a valid perspective, but one with which I disagree with.

If the goal is to become more Christlike, I don't believe abusing drugs and getting high is beneficial, because it's counter-productive. It's a very selfish and self-centred activity, and it often produces in you a numbing effect from it's prolonged use. There are exceptions to this, many people who smoke weed will explain that smoking weed actually makes you deal with your inner demons, a short trip into an introspective nightmare as it were, but this is the exception, not the rule, and imo, outweighed by the cons.

I shouldn't have used the word "spirituality", it is rather vague at this point since it is used to mean many things.
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07-14-2014 , 12:26 PM
It's just a psychoactive drug. Basically you are playing ping pong with your neurons, and therefore some things will seem different. It is no more profound than getting hit in the head while sparring.
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07-14-2014 , 12:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces
It's just a psychoactive drug. Basically you are playing ping pong with your neurons, and therefore some things will seem different. It is no more profound than getting hit in the head while sparring.
Never thought of it that way, it makes sense as an objective perspective, but why is it that it seems profound when you are experiencing it? I've had some out of this world experiences while high on psychedelics, that I can't imagine experiencing no matter how hard you hit me.
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07-14-2014 , 01:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Naked_Rectitude
Never thought of it that way, it makes sense as an objective perspective, but why is it that it seems profound when you are experiencing it? I've had some out of this world experiences while high on psychedelics, that I can't imagine experiencing no matter how hard you hit me.
Usually it is the perception of the drug that colors the experience. Take for example experiments with placebo alcohol where the experimental group will experience the same buzz and "partymood" as the control group served real alcohol.

This isn't to imply that there are not actual effects. In the example of alcohol, then real alcohol will block uptake of certain inhibitors making the drinkers less likely to say no or refuse ideas (for example people drunk on alcohol are more likely to drive than people drunk on placebo alcohol).

Some drugs such as psychedelics will give a sensation of euphoria or hallucinations, but it is likely "you" and your expectations that mostly color the experience.
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07-14-2014 , 02:46 PM
That reminds me of an interesting anecdote.

The fact that when you're drunk, you're more likely to drive to me is a pretty funny catch-22, where you need to be declared insane to not want to participate in a dangerous-mission, but you are instantly labelled sane, by attempting to not participate, and checking your mental health, in the first place.

My friend, while stumbling drunk in his home, cut his hand severely where he required medical attention. Instead of calling for help, because he was drunk he attempted to drive himself to the hospital, where he was pulled over and given a DWI. His objections where that he was drunk so he should not be culpable for his poor judgement of deciding to drive. Always made me chuckle.
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07-15-2014 , 12:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tame_deuces
It's just a psychoactive drug. Basically you are playing ping pong with your neurons, and therefore some things will seem different. It is no more profound than getting hit in the head while sparring.
I've never bothered to look into what really goes on during a trip. Is what you state here a a fact, or just an assumption on your part?

I once saw my dog turn into Satan on some windowpane. I've also been clocked in the head pretty good before. The most that ever got me were some floaties.
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07-15-2014 , 04:39 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
I've never bothered to look into what really goes on during a trip. Is what you state here a a fact, or just an assumption on your part?

I once saw my dog turn into Satan on some windowpane. I've also been clocked in the head pretty good before. The most that ever got me were some floaties.
Well, there people that see such things without drugs. In some cultures they are revered as holy men with profound visions, in psychology they are generally seen as schizophrenic. Drugs can of course also alter affect and other brain function, but even here we we see difference in expectation cause different perception. Drugs that induce euphoria will be experienced very differently if they are taken recreationally or medically.

And yes a concussion can cause hallucinations, though audial hallucinations are far more common than visual ones.
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07-15-2014 , 08:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
I've never bothered to look into what really goes on during a trip. Is what you state here a a fact, or just an assumption on your part?
Depends how he's defining 'profound' I guess. I've tripped and I've been clocked in the head quite a few times too, the experiences weren't in any way similar either in their intensity or in providing any insight or knowledge except that getting my nose broken a couple of times taught me to move my head more so in that respect, sparring was more profound than tripping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lestat
I once saw my dog turn into Satan on some windowpane. I've also been clocked in the head pretty good before. The most that ever got me were some floaties.
I'd compare being punch drunk to being a bit spaced out on strong painkillers.
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07-15-2014 , 03:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
I'd compare being punch drunk to being a bit spaced out on strong painkillers.
Which is an excellent example of the exact point I am making. Thank you.

The difference in perception on opiods pending on expectation is extremely striking, to the point that people don't realize the similarity of the drugs. Very few would consider recreational opiods similar to punch drunkness.
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07-18-2014 , 06:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by uke_master
Mightyboosh didn't state it quite correctly, but his idea is correct. The principle is the "libertarian deontological" position I mentioned earlier. It is that people should have the freedom to do as they wish unless it provides relatively significant harm. This freedom ethos exists throughout the first world but is strongest in America. The idea is that people able to do as they wish is inherently a good thing that we only inhibit when it is sufficiently harmful.
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I hadn't really thought about it from this perspective, perhaps because I don't imagine that much would really change. I know I wouldn't start using Heroin just because it was legal and the money raised from taxing a legal drugs trade could be used, as it is in Colorado, for education wrt to drug use. I doubt that we would suddenly see a significant increase in addiction. I disagree that there are any good moral reasons for not using and enjoying drugs and I don't think issues like the enforcement of seatbelt use are a good comparison.

I strongly suspect that much of the issue of which drugs are legal, and which aren't, is influenced by financial factors as with Marijuana which was intentionally demonised by Andrew Mellon because it was a threat to the blossoming Oil industry (he owned Standard Oil and had millions invested in oil patents) and also the Pharmaceutical industry.
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07-19-2014 , 06:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mightyboosh
I hadn't really thought about it from this perspective, perhaps because I don't imagine that much would really change. I know I wouldn't start using Heroin just because it was legal and the money raised from taxing a legal drugs trade could be used, as it is in Colorado, for education wrt to drug use. I doubt that we would suddenly see a significant increase in addiction. I disagree that there are any good moral reasons for not using and enjoying drugs and I don't think issues like the enforcement of seatbelt use are a good comparison.
I must say that this seems inconsistent with your usual comments about the efficacy of advertising and branding in causing people to use certain products. Do you not think that if a drug becomes legal and thus can be sold by big business (like tobacco or alcohol) and billions of dollars in advertisements are spent to sell it that usage and addiction will go up?
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07-19-2014 , 06:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Original Position
I must say that this seems inconsistent with your usual comments about the efficacy of advertising and branding in causing people to use certain products. Do you not think that if a drug becomes legal and thus can be sold by big business (like tobacco or alcohol) and billions of dollars in advertisements are spent to sell it that usage and addiction will go up?
Yeah, it's possible that a similar situation could arise with drugs like Heroin or Crack as has happened with alcohol due to the 'efficacy of advertising and branding'. The current situation with alcohol proves that people can be persuaded to use hard drugs that can kill them or at least have a serious negative impact on the quality of their lives. I could be wrong that there won't be a significant change in levels of addiction (significant in the sense of 'large', rather than the stats use) but even if I was, it wouldn't change my position. I'm not advocating that alcohol be illegal despite the problems I see it causing. So yes, my gut feeling that levels of addiction wouldn't rise hugely is probably inconsistent with my view of the efficacy of advertising, good point.

What I would like to see change is the levels of education wrt drug use and taxing legal sales provides a means for that to happen, as is currently happening in Colorado.
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